4 ms·

A lot of manufacturers do this. Many of the Flir thermal cameras share the same sensor and limited only by software. There are tons of hack for Rigol oscillosco

A lot of manufacturers do this. Many of the Flir thermal cameras share the same sensor and limited only by software. There are tons of hack for Rigol oscilloscopes to flash better firmware. On the recent ones, the manufacturer lets you unlock features with a software key. Tesla Model S has its battery capped by software. John Deere limits its tractors HP in software, and the list goes on. The hardware itself is cheap. 50-80% of the price is R&D. It's cheaper for them to only develop one hardware version and limit the features in the software, than develop multiple versions of the hardware.

AWildC182 6y ago
Hence why closed source firmware should be illegal
- ProZsolt 6y ago
  Why? If that would be the case they would only sell in the higher price tier. Currently, the more expensive product covers most of the R&D of the cheaper product.
  - AWildC182 6y ago
    Because by allowing companies to market segment through software they inherently have to cripple the ability to repair products/right-to-repair.
    - ProZsolt 6y ago
      Yes, from a user perspective I would like more repairable hardware. I also see that developing hardware is hard. These things are complex and any modification could cost thousands of dollars. It's not black and white. Most user doesn't care about repairability. I don't see a lot of people buy the Fairphone. They complain about John Deere but don't look for alternatives. They always chose the cheaper alternatives. If we could somehow separate the development cost and the manufacturing cost, we could get super repairable hardware. Just like with OSS. If someone sponsors the development the product is great otherwise commercial software wins.
      - AWildC182 6y ago
        And forcing companies to make the of their firmware source code available would fix all of this. The market will always steer everyone to the lowest common denominator and as a result fails when the externalities of pollution and e-waste are concerned.
buildbot 6y ago
And with the FLIR stuff, I think there are actual strong laws governing what happens between firmware that outputs 9fps and 30fps. It (probably) wouldn't make sense to make two different sensors with two different readout rates, you just lock it in firmware or with a laser at the die level.
myself248 6y ago
Speaking as someone who bought a FLIR camera _because_ that hack made reasonable features available at a reasonable price, I think it's important to consider the market effect that such a hack, if properly managed, can have. Corporations aren't gonna buy a camera and hack it. If a professional thermographer is telling her customers that she's using an E8, the bezel had better say E8 on it. But today's hobbyists may be tomorrow's corporations (My employer bought a C2 after I got sick of bringing in my E4/8), and brand recognition and experience have value. And as has been said, if they have more of the high-spec units than they're selling (or the low-spec ones were a way to use up crap-binned sensors but might get good sensors too), then selling "the same" hardware cheaper might make good market sense. As long as they're not losing money on it... I do wonder if someone might've wink-wink-nudge-nudge hinted that these units can do more than they're specced, Mike, you should tear one down... and then sales of that unit went absolutely through the roof. I know tons of people who have one now, and not a single one of us would've paid the E8 MSRP for it, and maybe only two of us would've found the E4 crap resolution useful. Rigol took a different tack, and started simply giving away the decoders that everyone was hacking them to enable anyway.
roel_v 6y ago
Can anyone tell me what Rigol I should buy and to what I can turbo-charge it through firmware hacks? Is it possible to buy something entry-level (say, $500) and make it into something that I can decode Modbus messages with, and also look at the exact waveform of my house 230V electrical installation? (these questions probably show how little I know about these things and I know how someone who doesn't know anything shouldn't be messing with electrical installations. Humor me.)
- jrussino 6y ago
  I remember seeing this a few years ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnhXfVYWYXE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnhXfVYWYXE That one is probably obsolete now, but if you search around you may find that this is still possible for whatever is Rigol's current entry-level scope.
- ProZsolt 6y ago
  The DS1054Z is currently the cheapest, but it is a few years old. If you have the money I would buy the MSO5072 it came out last year. Look for tests. Dave's EEVBlog is a good point to start.

AWildC182 6y ago

Hence why closed source firmware should be illegal

ProZsolt 6y ago
Why? If that would be the case they would only sell in the higher price tier. Currently, the more expensive product covers most of the R&D of the cheaper product.
- AWildC182 6y ago
  Because by allowing companies to market segment through software they inherently have to cripple the ability to repair products/right-to-repair.
  - ProZsolt 6y ago
    Yes, from a user perspective I would like more repairable hardware. I also see that developing hardware is hard. These things are complex and any modification could cost thousands of dollars. It's not black and white. Most user doesn't care about repairability. I don't see a lot of people buy the Fairphone. They complain about John Deere but don't look for alternatives. They always chose the cheaper alternatives. If we could somehow separate the development cost and the manufacturing cost, we could get super repairable hardware. Just like with OSS. If someone sponsors the development the product is great otherwise commercial software wins.
    - AWildC182 6y ago
      And forcing companies to make the of their firmware source code available would fix all of this. The market will always steer everyone to the lowest common denominator and as a result fails when the externalities of pollution and e-waste are concerned.

buildbot 6y ago

And with the FLIR stuff, I think there are actual strong laws governing what happens between firmware that outputs 9fps and 30fps. It (probably) wouldn't make sense to make two different sensors with two different readout rates, you just lock it in firmware or with a laser at the die level.

myself248 6y ago

Speaking as someone who bought a FLIR camera _because_ that hack made reasonable features available at a reasonable price, I think it's important to consider the market effect that such a hack, if properly managed, can have. Corporations aren't gonna buy a camera and hack it. If a professional thermographer is telling her customers that she's using an E8, the bezel had better say E8 on it. But today's hobbyists may be tomorrow's corporations (My employer bought a C2 after I got sick of bringing in my E4/8), and brand recognition and experience have value. And as has been said, if they have more of the high-spec units than they're selling (or the low-spec ones were a way to use up crap-binned sensors but might get good sensors too), then selling "the same" hardware cheaper might make good market sense. As long as they're not losing money on it... I do wonder if someone might've wink-wink-nudge-nudge hinted that these units can do more than they're specced, Mike, you should tear one down... and then sales of that unit went absolutely through the roof. I know tons of people who have one now, and not a single one of us would've paid the E8 MSRP for it, and maybe only two of us would've found the E4 crap resolution useful. Rigol took a different tack, and started simply giving away the decoders that everyone was hacking them to enable anyway.

roel_v 6y ago

Can anyone tell me what Rigol I should buy and to what I can turbo-charge it through firmware hacks? Is it possible to buy something entry-level (say, $500) and make it into something that I can decode Modbus messages with, and also look at the exact waveform of my house 230V electrical installation? (these questions probably show how little I know about these things and I know how someone who doesn't know anything shouldn't be messing with electrical installations. Humor me.)

jrussino 6y ago
I remember seeing this a few years ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnhXfVYWYXE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnhXfVYWYXE That one is probably obsolete now, but if you search around you may find that this is still possible for whatever is Rigol's current entry-level scope.
ProZsolt 6y ago
The DS1054Z is currently the cheapest, but it is a few years old. If you have the money I would buy the MSO5072 it came out last year. Look for tests. Dave's EEVBlog is a good point to start.