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GoPro has long baffled me as a company. 1. On the face of it, their main products in 2020 (i.e. action cameras) are barely innovative, and seem to have nothin

by mft_ 7y ago

GoPro has long baffled me as a company. 1. On the face of it, their main products in 2020 (i.e. action cameras) are barely innovative, and seem to have nothing to attract and lock customers in other than brand recognition built on expensive marketing campaigns. Essentially, they're selling commodity equipment at a large mark-up. Why haven't they been totally displaced by a manufacturer with a cheaper clone, also offering a good enough brand and ecosystem to compete? 2. Where they have innovated, they've hugely missed the target. In particular, their drone release was just an awful, awful misjudgement. Not just because it fell out of the sky. Not just because it came out at the same time as a superior competitor from DJI. But because it totally missed that GoPro is/was seen as a provider of action cameras - things that can be started and then forgotten about as they record your activities. They released a fairly generic drone, which required constant operator interaction. Had they released a drone with a tether, which could be started and then forgotten about as you ride your MTB, or your snowboard, they'd have likely had a hit, aligned with their brand identity (assuming it didn't drop out of the sky).

cm2012 7y ago
See: Beats by Dr Dre for a comparable company. Brands matter.
- some_random 7y ago
  I don't think fashion headphones meant to be worn frequently compare well with an action camera that has limited branding on it which is meant to be used when you're already doing something cool
  - cm2012 7y ago
    GoPro invests an insane amount into branding. https://www.enrichmybrand.com/blog/branding-at-its-finestcult-brand-gopro https://www.enrichmybrand.com/blog/branding-at-its-finestcul...
    - kevin_thibedeau 7y ago
      They also invest in fraudulent DMCA takedowns for negative reviews. I wouldn't touch them with a 10' selfie stick.
kayoone 7y ago
the brand and ecosystem of GoPro are bigger than you might think.
- mft_ 7y ago
  I guess marketing is the one thing they really excel at? :)
ravenstine 7y ago
> 1. On the face of it, their main products in 2020 (i.e. action cameras) are barely innovative, and seem to have nothing to attract and lock customers in other than brand recognition built on expensive marketing campaigns. Essentially, they're selling commodity equipment at a large mark-up. Why haven't they been totally displaced by a manufacturer with a cheaper clone, also offering a good enough brand and ecosystem to compete? I think they were selling shovels during a gold rush. With the popularity of YouTube growing, the demand from everyday people for better cameras and so-called "action cameras" increased significantly. It should have been pretty easy to see what would be profitable. They were also taking advantage of the fact that most cameras are complicated, that most established camera manufacturers are slow to change and have a hard time valuing simplicity, and that the idea of an "action camera" was a new concept to average people. Having a relatively small product line also made it clear to people what they were about; it also made their products easily identifiable with their brand. Why buy an action camera from a company that makes a bunch of different things, when the action camera is what GoPro does? To sum that up, I think they appeared on the scene at the right time and existing camera brands were too slow(at least for a while) and had poor marketing. > 2. Where they have innovated, they've hugely missed the target. In particular, their drone release was just an awful, awful misjudgement. Yeah, that seems like a huge misstep.
- ghaff 7y ago
  >camera manufacturers are slow to change and have a hard time valuing simplicity I would never use simplicity and GoPro in the same sentence. At last the model I played with a while back had an absolutely terrible user interface which made it really hard to sure it was on if it was mounted on a helmet.
  - ravenstine 7y ago
    Funny you should say that because, compared to every other digital camera I've used, GoPros were pretty easy to use. But it's been many years since I've used one.
    - sjagoe 7y ago
ianhawes 7y ago
FWIW, for awhile GoPro was synonymous with "taking a video from something other than a phone" (i.e. the 2010s version of a camcorder).
Doctor_Fegg 7y ago
> Why haven't they been totally displaced by a manufacturer with a cheaper clone, also offering a good enough brand and ecosystem to compete? I looked into this recently because I wanted a handlebar cam for bike touring. The answer is that the competition is, by and large, not good enough. It fails on the obvious stuff: resolution, battery life, ruggedness, UI, software support. There are plenty of action cams that do one or two of those well, but no one except GoPro ticks all the boxes. I honestly wasn't expecting to buy a GoPro when I started researching - especially because my main interest is timelapse rather than video. But after days looking into it, that's the conclusion I came to.
- Godel_unicode 7y ago
  And the image stabilization, which is head and shoulders above anything else not mounted to a gimble. You can make mountain bike videos that look like the camera was mounted on a slider.
leetcrew 7y ago
regarding 2), I'm pretty sure that's not legal unless you can make an extremely light drone. FAA rules require line-of-sight for the operator at all times.
- mft_ 7y ago
  IANAL about the interpretation of the rules, but: * Airdog have been doing this (on a small scale) for ages - they released a GPS tethered action drone years ago. * Skydio, more recently, released first a follow-me drone based totally on vision, and then a drone with vision and GPS tether * Lots of other drones (DJI included) have vision follow-me, although with varied success (based on reviews) Problem is, the ones that work well (e.g. Skydio) are really expensive, and the tech hasn't trickled down to cheaper models yet.
  - leetcrew 7y ago
    yes, I have the original spark. the follow-me works surprisingly well, but not to the point where I would be comfortable not paying close attention to the drone. IANAL either, but the rules are quite clear that the operator must maintain line-of-sight at all times. I don't think this is satisfied by having the drone in your peripheral vision (or behind you) while you pay attention to something else. lots of consumer drones have capabilities that could not be legally used by a hobbyist in most jurisdictions. even a spark can be controlled over greater distances than you could conceivably maintain LOS over. to be clear, I mean legal for the operator. I don't think it is (yet) illegal to sell drones that hobbyists can do illegal things with. I suspect that a lot of the demand for hobbyist-level drones comes from people who don't intend to follow the rules. I've stopped flying mine because I can't think of anything fun to do that doesn't break the rules.
geddy 7y ago
> On the face of it, their main products in 2020 (i.e. action cameras) are barely innovative The built-in software image stabilization on the Hero 7 Black is absolutely incredible. There simply isn't a competitor in the space that even comes close. I've owned a HeroHD, a Hero4, and now a Hero7 Black. I have recorded countless dirt bike rides, mountain biking, downhill mountain biking ie. stuff that is incredibly bumpy, and with the onboard stabilization it looks like a walk through the park with the 7 Black. I thought it had peaked when I got the Hero4, but the 7 Black is just insane.
- mft_ 7y ago
  Thanks - fair enough. I've not owned a GoPro newer than a 3 - so software improvements have obviously left me behind.
  - geddy 7y ago
    Prior to the 7 Black I would have agreed with your original comment. For a few years, each iteration was essentially "we can record bigger and with higher fps. Also the battery life is a little bit better". 7 Black changed my mind.
fingerlocks 7y ago
Contour cameras was a very promising competitor that briefly had an edge over GoPro. They went out of business in 2013. The market for action cams just isn’t big enough for multiple manufacturers. It’s an expensive, high risk industry.
- m463 7y ago
  I always thought contour would win -- their cameras were smaller and streamlined for a good fit on the side of a helmet. In comparison a gopro was like stapling a brick to your forehead. But I guess people didn't care (or did contour do something wrong?)
  - fingerlocks 7y ago
    They ran out of money, blew too much on marketing/brand trying to emulate GoPro’s model. There were other business issues, but that’s the gist of it. At the time, their hardware was only 6 mos. behind GoPro and the software was much better. But I’m biased because, full disclosure, I used to work there.
dlgeek 7y ago
Ehh, based on what I've seen (from various YouTubers, anyway), I think the Fusion has been a very well-received innovation from them.
somehnguy 7y ago
It sounds like you're not very familiar with their core offerings (action cameras). They're much more than just a rebranded and marked up generic. I fly racing/freestyle drones, and in this space action cams get broken a lot. Yet everyone is still strapping GoPros onto them anyway. This is because if you care about image quality in the action cam form factor there is no substitute. The image quality coming from a GoPro is leagues above anything else in the space. They have no real competitors that even remotely touch their quality/size ratio. About once a year a competitor comes along and everyone rejoices 'yay finally a GoPro alternative' and then its a major flop because it just isn't comparable. Their new cameras have excellent stabilization built in as well, setting them even further away from the pack.
noja 7y ago
> are barely innovative Have you tried any of their cheap competitors? You'll be shipping 'em back to Amazon within 10 minutes of opening.
Leherenn 7y ago
To be fair, DJI killed (or finished killing) pretty much the whole consumer drone industry with that release.
jeffnappi 7y ago
The GoPro Max is quite innovative. There is nothing like it that makes 360 video so capable and easy to use. For example - reframing 360 footage can be done in moments with a smartphone - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gy5zClAirQU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gy5zClAirQU
micmil 7y ago
GoPro has a decade+ old ecosystem built around their products. Go to any mountain bike trail, kayaking spot, climbing location, hiking trail, and ask around if anyone has a GoPro mount you can borrow, or a waterproof case. If there's more than a handful of people the answer WILL be yes. They managed to become the de facto standard for sports videography simply by offering a stupid number of accessories that nobody else thought of or thought was necessary. While each new generation has changed and improved the most important thing is that what they've never done is get worse. They haven't been displaced because it would take a company fully committed to matching GoPro accessory for accessory. THAT is where the real advantage they have is.
NoPicklez 7y ago
I'm not sure if I full agree with point #1. The latest GoPro's have incredible image stabilisation, I mean incredible. Enough so that vloggers and extreme sports people don't need to use separate gimbals anymore. The imagine stabilization is absolutely innovative and crushes the rest of the market.

by mft_ 7y ago

cm2012 7y ago

See: Beats by Dr Dre for a comparable company. Brands matter.

some_random 7y ago
I don't think fashion headphones meant to be worn frequently compare well with an action camera that has limited branding on it which is meant to be used when you're already doing something cool
- cm2012 7y ago
  GoPro invests an insane amount into branding. https://www.enrichmybrand.com/blog/branding-at-its-finestcult-brand-gopro https://www.enrichmybrand.com/blog/branding-at-its-finestcul...
  - kevin_thibedeau 7y ago
    They also invest in fraudulent DMCA takedowns for negative reviews. I wouldn't touch them with a 10' selfie stick.

kayoone 7y ago

the brand and ecosystem of GoPro are bigger than you might think.

mft_ 7y ago
I guess marketing is the one thing they really excel at? :)

ravenstine 7y ago

> 1. On the face of it, their main products in 2020 (i.e. action cameras) are barely innovative, and seem to have nothing to attract and lock customers in other than brand recognition built on expensive marketing campaigns. Essentially, they're selling commodity equipment at a large mark-up. Why haven't they been totally displaced by a manufacturer with a cheaper clone, also offering a good enough brand and ecosystem to compete? I think they were selling shovels during a gold rush. With the popularity of YouTube growing, the demand from everyday people for better cameras and so-called "action cameras" increased significantly. It should have been pretty easy to see what would be profitable. They were also taking advantage of the fact that most cameras are complicated, that most established camera manufacturers are slow to change and have a hard time valuing simplicity, and that the idea of an "action camera" was a new concept to average people. Having a relatively small product line also made it clear to people what they were about; it also made their products easily identifiable with their brand. Why buy an action camera from a company that makes a bunch of different things, when the action camera is what GoPro does? To sum that up, I think they appeared on the scene at the right time and existing camera brands were too slow(at least for a while) and had poor marketing. > 2. Where they have innovated, they've hugely missed the target. In particular, their drone release was just an awful, awful misjudgement. Yeah, that seems like a huge misstep.

ghaff 7y ago
>camera manufacturers are slow to change and have a hard time valuing simplicity I would never use simplicity and GoPro in the same sentence. At last the model I played with a while back had an absolutely terrible user interface which made it really hard to sure it was on if it was mounted on a helmet.
- ravenstine 7y ago
  Funny you should say that because, compared to every other digital camera I've used, GoPros were pretty easy to use. But it's been many years since I've used one.
  - sjagoe 7y ago

ianhawes 7y ago

FWIW, for awhile GoPro was synonymous with "taking a video from something other than a phone" (i.e. the 2010s version of a camcorder).

Doctor_Fegg 7y ago

> Why haven't they been totally displaced by a manufacturer with a cheaper clone, also offering a good enough brand and ecosystem to compete? I looked into this recently because I wanted a handlebar cam for bike touring. The answer is that the competition is, by and large, not good enough. It fails on the obvious stuff: resolution, battery life, ruggedness, UI, software support. There are plenty of action cams that do one or two of those well, but no one except GoPro ticks all the boxes. I honestly wasn't expecting to buy a GoPro when I started researching - especially because my main interest is timelapse rather than video. But after days looking into it, that's the conclusion I came to.

Godel_unicode 7y ago
And the image stabilization, which is head and shoulders above anything else not mounted to a gimble. You can make mountain bike videos that look like the camera was mounted on a slider.

leetcrew 7y ago

regarding 2), I'm pretty sure that's not legal unless you can make an extremely light drone. FAA rules require line-of-sight for the operator at all times.

mft_ 7y ago
IANAL about the interpretation of the rules, but: * Airdog have been doing this (on a small scale) for ages - they released a GPS tethered action drone years ago. * Skydio, more recently, released first a follow-me drone based totally on vision, and then a drone with vision and GPS tether * Lots of other drones (DJI included) have vision follow-me, although with varied success (based on reviews) Problem is, the ones that work well (e.g. Skydio) are really expensive, and the tech hasn't trickled down to cheaper models yet.
- leetcrew 7y ago
  yes, I have the original spark. the follow-me works surprisingly well, but not to the point where I would be comfortable not paying close attention to the drone. IANAL either, but the rules are quite clear that the operator must maintain line-of-sight at all times. I don't think this is satisfied by having the drone in your peripheral vision (or behind you) while you pay attention to something else. lots of consumer drones have capabilities that could not be legally used by a hobbyist in most jurisdictions. even a spark can be controlled over greater distances than you could conceivably maintain LOS over. to be clear, I mean legal for the operator. I don't think it is (yet) illegal to sell drones that hobbyists can do illegal things with. I suspect that a lot of the demand for hobbyist-level drones comes from people who don't intend to follow the rules. I've stopped flying mine because I can't think of anything fun to do that doesn't break the rules.

geddy 7y ago

> On the face of it, their main products in 2020 (i.e. action cameras) are barely innovative The built-in software image stabilization on the Hero 7 Black is absolutely incredible. There simply isn't a competitor in the space that even comes close. I've owned a HeroHD, a Hero4, and now a Hero7 Black. I have recorded countless dirt bike rides, mountain biking, downhill mountain biking ie. stuff that is incredibly bumpy, and with the onboard stabilization it looks like a walk through the park with the 7 Black. I thought it had peaked when I got the Hero4, but the 7 Black is just insane.

mft_ 7y ago
Thanks - fair enough. I've not owned a GoPro newer than a 3 - so software improvements have obviously left me behind.
- geddy 7y ago
  Prior to the 7 Black I would have agreed with your original comment. For a few years, each iteration was essentially "we can record bigger and with higher fps. Also the battery life is a little bit better". 7 Black changed my mind.

fingerlocks 7y ago

Contour cameras was a very promising competitor that briefly had an edge over GoPro. They went out of business in 2013. The market for action cams just isn’t big enough for multiple manufacturers. It’s an expensive, high risk industry.

m463 7y ago
I always thought contour would win -- their cameras were smaller and streamlined for a good fit on the side of a helmet. In comparison a gopro was like stapling a brick to your forehead. But I guess people didn't care (or did contour do something wrong?)
- fingerlocks 7y ago
  They ran out of money, blew too much on marketing/brand trying to emulate GoPro’s model. There were other business issues, but that’s the gist of it. At the time, their hardware was only 6 mos. behind GoPro and the software was much better. But I’m biased because, full disclosure, I used to work there.

dlgeek 7y ago

Ehh, based on what I've seen (from various YouTubers, anyway), I think the Fusion has been a very well-received innovation from them.

somehnguy 7y ago

It sounds like you're not very familiar with their core offerings (action cameras). They're much more than just a rebranded and marked up generic. I fly racing/freestyle drones, and in this space action cams get broken a lot. Yet everyone is still strapping GoPros onto them anyway. This is because if you care about image quality in the action cam form factor there is no substitute. The image quality coming from a GoPro is leagues above anything else in the space. They have no real competitors that even remotely touch their quality/size ratio. About once a year a competitor comes along and everyone rejoices 'yay finally a GoPro alternative' and then its a major flop because it just isn't comparable. Their new cameras have excellent stabilization built in as well, setting them even further away from the pack.

noja 7y ago

> are barely innovative Have you tried any of their cheap competitors? You'll be shipping 'em back to Amazon within 10 minutes of opening.

Leherenn 7y ago

To be fair, DJI killed (or finished killing) pretty much the whole consumer drone industry with that release.

jeffnappi 7y ago

The GoPro Max is quite innovative. There is nothing like it that makes 360 video so capable and easy to use. For example - reframing 360 footage can be done in moments with a smartphone - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gy5zClAirQU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gy5zClAirQU

micmil 7y ago

GoPro has a decade+ old ecosystem built around their products. Go to any mountain bike trail, kayaking spot, climbing location, hiking trail, and ask around if anyone has a GoPro mount you can borrow, or a waterproof case. If there's more than a handful of people the answer WILL be yes. They managed to become the de facto standard for sports videography simply by offering a stupid number of accessories that nobody else thought of or thought was necessary. While each new generation has changed and improved the most important thing is that what they've never done is get worse. They haven't been displaced because it would take a company fully committed to matching GoPro accessory for accessory. THAT is where the real advantage they have is.

NoPicklez 7y ago

I'm not sure if I full agree with point #1. The latest GoPro's have incredible image stabilisation, I mean incredible. Enough so that vloggers and extreme sports people don't need to use separate gimbals anymore. The imagine stabilization is absolutely innovative and crushes the rest of the market.