4 ms·

The ideal I talk about is really just respecting other people and respecting things even if they are not yours personally. Not very complicated nor high-theory

The ideal I talk about is really just respecting other people and respecting things even if they are not yours personally. Not very complicated nor high-theory stuff. If you want to talk about socialism specifically, the biggest drawback of socialism is that if you do it too well, you attract the attention of the US military industrial complex. The entire modern history of Latin America exemplifies this issue. Neoliberalism and capitalism do not tolerate alternatives to exist, because they undermine the condtructed narrative that no valid alternatives exist.

WalterBright 7y ago
> If you want to talk about socialism specifically, the biggest drawback of socialism is that if you do it too well, you attract the attention of the US military industrial complex. The US is hardly the only place where socialism has been tried. Last I checked, over 10,000 communes have been formed in the US since its inception. They all failed. None were put out of business by government intervention. The Pilgrims tried a commune the first year (they starved). The Jamestown colony also attempted to work as a commune (they starved). The San Francisco Summer of Love commune lasted maybe 3 months. Remember the Jonestown commune? Israel has their kibbutzes, but they'd starve if they didn't receive generous taxpayer support from the Israeli government. The great thing about the US is there are no laws against communes. You are free to go set one up with your like-minded friends. Nobody is going to try to stop you. People do it all the time. But they never work. They never have, and never will, because of human nature.
- KozmoNau7 7y ago
  There are tons of well-functioning communes, cooperatives and similar communities all over the world, doing quite well for themselves and the people who live in them and their surrounding communities. Many have existed for decades, such as garden allotment associations here in the Nordic countries. Freetown Christiania has been a cooperative commune since the 1970s. A significant percentage of housing here in Denmark exists as cooperatives, and the best ones have long waiting lists of people wishing to move in and join. They tend not to shout a lot about how great and awesome they are, because that sort of thing goes against the idea and mindset. Perhaps you should look beyond your own ideology, and you'll see that there are a lot more and sometimes better ways to do things than your particular way.
  - WalterBright 7y ago
    > Freetown Christiania Stole the land they use and supported themselves selling illegal drugs. Maybe they're also living off of government benefit checks, which is not self-sufficiency. No mention that I could find on the turnover. 1 to 2 years is a typical stay in a commune, as people get tired of it and move on. > sometimes better ways to do things than your particular way If Freetown is your ideal, feel free to move there. No thanks from me. It's neighbors don't appear to care for it, either. > cooperatives Cooperative housing isn't the same thing as giving people free housing any more than a corporation means giving people free shares.
    - KozmoNau7 7y ago
      Literally nobody is talking about "free housing", we're talking about communal ownership in communities and cooperatives. "Selling illegal drugs" as some sort of indictment is laughable considering we're talking about weed, which is quickly being decriminalized and legalized all over the world, as the relatively harmless substance it is. You are sadly quite ill-informed and way out of your depth on subject matter you only have cursory experience with. I genuinely suspect that D stands for Dunning-Kruger, and I would recommend you stick with what you know, instead of embarrassing yourself on subjects your software development experience has absolutely no relation to. Being smart in one area does not make you universally smart in other areas.
      - nickpp 7y ago
        Having to attack the person you are arguing with speaks rather poorly of the argument you are trying to make.
      - WalterBright 7y ago
        Selling illegal drugs enables one to make huge profits not available to legal commerce. I've always been in favor of the legalization of marijuana. I voted for it. But my point that taking advantage of the high profits from trafficking in illegal things is not a valid argument for the economic viability of communes. For a commune to have standing as a viable way to live, it: 1. needs to be voluntary 2. needs to have its residents be there long term, i.e. 5 years or more 3. needs a legitimate source of income (not subsisting on crime) 4. needs to generate enough income to be self-sustaining (not relying on external income to make up the slack, such as donations, retirement pay or government welfare payments) 5. not rely on theft of resources, such as squatting on land not paid for If you have evidence for communes that fit these criteria, I'd like to see it.

WalterBright 7y ago

> If you want to talk about socialism specifically, the biggest drawback of socialism is that if you do it too well, you attract the attention of the US military industrial complex. The US is hardly the only place where socialism has been tried. Last I checked, over 10,000 communes have been formed in the US since its inception. They all failed. None were put out of business by government intervention. The Pilgrims tried a commune the first year (they starved). The Jamestown colony also attempted to work as a commune (they starved). The San Francisco Summer of Love commune lasted maybe 3 months. Remember the Jonestown commune? Israel has their kibbutzes, but they'd starve if they didn't receive generous taxpayer support from the Israeli government. The great thing about the US is there are no laws against communes. You are free to go set one up with your like-minded friends. Nobody is going to try to stop you. People do it all the time. But they never work. They never have, and never will, because of human nature.

KozmoNau7 7y ago
There are tons of well-functioning communes, cooperatives and similar communities all over the world, doing quite well for themselves and the people who live in them and their surrounding communities. Many have existed for decades, such as garden allotment associations here in the Nordic countries. Freetown Christiania has been a cooperative commune since the 1970s. A significant percentage of housing here in Denmark exists as cooperatives, and the best ones have long waiting lists of people wishing to move in and join. They tend not to shout a lot about how great and awesome they are, because that sort of thing goes against the idea and mindset. Perhaps you should look beyond your own ideology, and you'll see that there are a lot more and sometimes better ways to do things than your particular way.
- WalterBright 7y ago
  > Freetown Christiania Stole the land they use and supported themselves selling illegal drugs. Maybe they're also living off of government benefit checks, which is not self-sufficiency. No mention that I could find on the turnover. 1 to 2 years is a typical stay in a commune, as people get tired of it and move on. > sometimes better ways to do things than your particular way If Freetown is your ideal, feel free to move there. No thanks from me. It's neighbors don't appear to care for it, either. > cooperatives Cooperative housing isn't the same thing as giving people free housing any more than a corporation means giving people free shares.
  - KozmoNau7 7y ago
    Literally nobody is talking about "free housing", we're talking about communal ownership in communities and cooperatives. "Selling illegal drugs" as some sort of indictment is laughable considering we're talking about weed, which is quickly being decriminalized and legalized all over the world, as the relatively harmless substance it is. You are sadly quite ill-informed and way out of your depth on subject matter you only have cursory experience with. I genuinely suspect that D stands for Dunning-Kruger, and I would recommend you stick with what you know, instead of embarrassing yourself on subjects your software development experience has absolutely no relation to. Being smart in one area does not make you universally smart in other areas.
    - nickpp 7y ago
      Having to attack the person you are arguing with speaks rather poorly of the argument you are trying to make.
    - WalterBright 7y ago
      Selling illegal drugs enables one to make huge profits not available to legal commerce. I've always been in favor of the legalization of marijuana. I voted for it. But my point that taking advantage of the high profits from trafficking in illegal things is not a valid argument for the economic viability of communes. For a commune to have standing as a viable way to live, it: 1. needs to be voluntary 2. needs to have its residents be there long term, i.e. 5 years or more 3. needs a legitimate source of income (not subsisting on crime) 4. needs to generate enough income to be self-sustaining (not relying on external income to make up the slack, such as donations, retirement pay or government welfare payments) 5. not rely on theft of resources, such as squatting on land not paid for If you have evidence for communes that fit these criteria, I'd like to see it.