4 ms·

They are not actually hoarding “wealth”. No one is sitting on a pile of apartments, or ventilators, or college spots, or food distribution capacity. There is

by aey 6y ago

They are not actually hoarding “wealth”. No one is sitting on a pile of apartments, or ventilators, or college spots, or food distribution capacity. There is fixed amount of that stuff out there right now. If it was possible to produce apartments for you for half the price, or deliver food, or an fda approved ventilator, and still have a profit investors would be jumping over themselves to do so. Businesses are hoarding cash because they predict a drop in revenue and want to save as much as they can so they can continue operations and realign for the new economy.

emilecantin 6y ago
> No one is sitting on a pile of apartments, or ventilators, or college spots, or food distribution capacity. The large number of empty apartments being rented 3-4 nights a month on AirBnb in most large cities seems to indicate otherwise. The CPAP machine "jailbreak" posted here yesterday seems to indicate otherwise. The large quantity of food going to the trash every day seems to indicate otherwise. I agree that there is a "fixed" amount of stuff out there, but it's far from allocated efficiently. I think it's time we recognized that.
- kortilla 6y ago
  How is a CPAP machine hack an indication that there are excess ventilators? I don’t think you thought that through. > but it's far from allocated efficiently. I think it's time we recognized that. Who hasn’t recognized there can be inefficiency in the current system? The argument is that a central planning committee is going to do much worse.
  - viklove 6y ago
    Didn't take long for the communism strawman to come out. You're the only one suggesting that as an alternative though.
  - emilecantin 6y ago
    The gist of the article was that a CPAP machine was basically a ventilator with some features disabled in software. Given that there are many of these around, with a 3G internet connection and OTA updates, and that the manufacturer could easily turn a CPAP machine into a ventilator by "flicking a switch", yeah, I consider that an indication that they're "sitting on it". They'd rather sell you a new machine at over-inflated prices than enable existing machines to be repurposed.
- jmchuster 6y ago
  > The large quantity of food going to the trash every day seems to indicate otherwise. These are all kind of bad examples, but I'll go with this one. Food takes time to grow or produce, so you have to accurately predict months out how much food you can sell. So, who is to blame for imperfect predictions of future demand? We could donate all this food instead of just binning it, so then who's to blame for not building the mass infrastructure required to coordinate such distribution, and then running it all for free? And then if such an individual did do this, why didn't they spend their considerable resources instead on a project that could have benefited humanity way more?
  - fzeroracer 6y ago
    I mean, you realize this is a catch-22 argument right? We don't want the government doing anything in our lives, so we don't expect any sort of mass infrastructure to be built to support for food distribution. We expect the wealthy and corporations to be philanthropists. But being a philanthropist costs money. So instead we have a bunch of farms and food producers instead tossing out food because it's cheaper to throw it away than it is to donate it. So how can you claim it's a bad example when people would rather throw food away for profit?
    - jmchuster 6y ago
      Your expectation is that farms should operate at a loss such that no food goes to waste? Businesses that don't make money very quickly will get shut down. Or they could just always underproduce what the market needs in order to ensure that there is no waste.
      - kerkeslager 6y ago
        Nice try, but when states and municipalities have made anti-food-waste laws, this hasn't happened. In fact, with a little tweaking, most food businesses can profit from throwing away less food: garbage disposal isn't free, and food donations are a tax writeoff. Someone I knew in Philadelphia used to trash pick food from the Trader Joe's dumpster. But they caught him on camera and then put up signs, and eventually put a lock on the dumpster. They literally spent money to buy signs and a lock, and pay people to put up the signs and lock the dumpster every night.
- aey 6y ago
  > The large number of empty apartments being rented 3-4 nights a month on AirBnb in most large cities seems to indicate otherwise. High rent for shitty apartments has been part of SF and NYC life for 30 years before Airbnb. This is more of a NIMBY problem. It’s politically easier to blame Airbnb then to build high rises with affordable rent and change the “culture” of the neighborhood /barf
rorykoehler 6y ago
> No one is sitting on a pile of apartments They most certainly are. Vast amounts of private real estate in the most prime locations are sitting empty. See the Royal Family's property in Mayfair London for example.
PascLeRasc 6y ago
It's actually quite profitable to hoard apartments [1] and ventilators [2]. [1]: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/21/upshot/when-the-empty-apartment-next-door-is-owned-by-an-oligarch.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/21/upshot/when-the-empty-apa... [2]: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/29/business/coronavirus-us-ventilator-shortage.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/29/business/coronavirus-us-v...
onion2k 6y ago
They are not actually hoarding “wealth”. No one is sitting on a pile of apartments... They literally are actually. Buying expensive houses and leaving them empty is an incredibly common way of hoarding wealth. https://londonist.com/london/housing/how-many-vacant-empty-homes-london https://londonist.com/london/housing/how-many-vacant-empty-h...
kerkeslager 6y ago
> No one is sitting on a pile of apartments, or ventilators, or college spots, or food distribution capacity. There is fixed amount of that stuff out there right now. Well actually, at least two of your examples are clearly wrong. In NYC, one of the most competitive housing markets in the world, one in four luxury apartments is vacant[1] while the homeless freeze to death outside each winter. Any shortage of food is hard to argue when we're turning corn into fuel instead of food[2]. The only reason people aren't sitting on piles of ventilators yet is that the high demand is new enough that a way of making money by letting people die of suffocation hasn't yet emerged. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/13/realestate/new-development-new-york.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/13/realestate/new-developmen... [2] https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevensalzberg/2016/04/25/why-are-we-growing-corn-to-fuel-our-cars-three-reasons-why-ethanol-is-a-bad-idea/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevensalzberg/2016/04/25/why-a...

by aey 6y ago

emilecantin 6y ago

> No one is sitting on a pile of apartments, or ventilators, or college spots, or food distribution capacity. The large number of empty apartments being rented 3-4 nights a month on AirBnb in most large cities seems to indicate otherwise. The CPAP machine "jailbreak" posted here yesterday seems to indicate otherwise. The large quantity of food going to the trash every day seems to indicate otherwise. I agree that there is a "fixed" amount of stuff out there, but it's far from allocated efficiently. I think it's time we recognized that.

kortilla 6y ago
How is a CPAP machine hack an indication that there are excess ventilators? I don’t think you thought that through. > but it's far from allocated efficiently. I think it's time we recognized that. Who hasn’t recognized there can be inefficiency in the current system? The argument is that a central planning committee is going to do much worse.
- viklove 6y ago
  Didn't take long for the communism strawman to come out. You're the only one suggesting that as an alternative though.
- emilecantin 6y ago
  The gist of the article was that a CPAP machine was basically a ventilator with some features disabled in software. Given that there are many of these around, with a 3G internet connection and OTA updates, and that the manufacturer could easily turn a CPAP machine into a ventilator by "flicking a switch", yeah, I consider that an indication that they're "sitting on it". They'd rather sell you a new machine at over-inflated prices than enable existing machines to be repurposed.
jmchuster 6y ago
> The large quantity of food going to the trash every day seems to indicate otherwise. These are all kind of bad examples, but I'll go with this one. Food takes time to grow or produce, so you have to accurately predict months out how much food you can sell. So, who is to blame for imperfect predictions of future demand? We could donate all this food instead of just binning it, so then who's to blame for not building the mass infrastructure required to coordinate such distribution, and then running it all for free? And then if such an individual did do this, why didn't they spend their considerable resources instead on a project that could have benefited humanity way more?
- fzeroracer 6y ago
  I mean, you realize this is a catch-22 argument right? We don't want the government doing anything in our lives, so we don't expect any sort of mass infrastructure to be built to support for food distribution. We expect the wealthy and corporations to be philanthropists. But being a philanthropist costs money. So instead we have a bunch of farms and food producers instead tossing out food because it's cheaper to throw it away than it is to donate it. So how can you claim it's a bad example when people would rather throw food away for profit?
  - jmchuster 6y ago
    Your expectation is that farms should operate at a loss such that no food goes to waste? Businesses that don't make money very quickly will get shut down. Or they could just always underproduce what the market needs in order to ensure that there is no waste.
    - kerkeslager 6y ago
      Nice try, but when states and municipalities have made anti-food-waste laws, this hasn't happened. In fact, with a little tweaking, most food businesses can profit from throwing away less food: garbage disposal isn't free, and food donations are a tax writeoff. Someone I knew in Philadelphia used to trash pick food from the Trader Joe's dumpster. But they caught him on camera and then put up signs, and eventually put a lock on the dumpster. They literally spent money to buy signs and a lock, and pay people to put up the signs and lock the dumpster every night.
aey 6y ago
> The large number of empty apartments being rented 3-4 nights a month on AirBnb in most large cities seems to indicate otherwise. High rent for shitty apartments has been part of SF and NYC life for 30 years before Airbnb. This is more of a NIMBY problem. It’s politically easier to blame Airbnb then to build high rises with affordable rent and change the “culture” of the neighborhood /barf

rorykoehler 6y ago

> No one is sitting on a pile of apartments They most certainly are. Vast amounts of private real estate in the most prime locations are sitting empty. See the Royal Family's property in Mayfair London for example.

PascLeRasc 6y ago

It's actually quite profitable to hoard apartments [1] and ventilators [2]. [1]: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/21/upshot/when-the-empty-apartment-next-door-is-owned-by-an-oligarch.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/21/upshot/when-the-empty-apa... [2]: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/29/business/coronavirus-us-ventilator-shortage.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/29/business/coronavirus-us-v...

onion2k 6y ago

They are not actually hoarding “wealth”. No one is sitting on a pile of apartments... They literally are actually. Buying expensive houses and leaving them empty is an incredibly common way of hoarding wealth. https://londonist.com/london/housing/how-many-vacant-empty-homes-london https://londonist.com/london/housing/how-many-vacant-empty-h...

kerkeslager 6y ago

> No one is sitting on a pile of apartments, or ventilators, or college spots, or food distribution capacity. There is fixed amount of that stuff out there right now. Well actually, at least two of your examples are clearly wrong. In NYC, one of the most competitive housing markets in the world, one in four luxury apartments is vacant[1] while the homeless freeze to death outside each winter. Any shortage of food is hard to argue when we're turning corn into fuel instead of food[2]. The only reason people aren't sitting on piles of ventilators yet is that the high demand is new enough that a way of making money by letting people die of suffocation hasn't yet emerged. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/13/realestate/new-development-new-york.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/13/realestate/new-developmen... [2] https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevensalzberg/2016/04/25/why-are-we-growing-corn-to-fuel-our-cars-three-reasons-why-ethanol-is-a-bad-idea/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevensalzberg/2016/04/25/why-a...