4 ms·

What Musk did was certainly unethical, but it highlights how dumb the stock market really is. At what point is the investor expected to take responsibility for

What Musk did was certainly unethical, but it highlights how dumb the stock market really is. At what point is the investor expected to take responsibility for bad investments based on speculation?

inopinatus 7y ago
That penance is reserved for small investors. They are Frank Wilhoit’s out-group in this matter.
soup10 7y ago
Nobody forced Musk to run a highly leveraged company that will collapse on itself when it runs out of cheap financing. At some point the music will stop.
- CivBase 7y ago
  And nobody forced investors to buy overpriced Tesla stocks. I'm not going to bat for Elon here. I just think it sets a pretty bad precedent for investors to be able to sue a person when they make bad investments based on that person's social media ramblings. If Elon or someone connected to him profited off the ordeal, then there might be something here. I haven't seen anything to indicate that, though.
  - soup10 7y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Securities_fraud https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Securities_fraud
    - CivBase 7y ago
      I never said the lawsuit wont be successful. I just said I think it is a bad precedent. IANAL, so I can only offer amateur speculation regarding whether Elon's actions were illegal. His actions do not align with any of the "type of securities fraud" listed on that page, but they do fit within the broader definition given at the top of the page.
      - soup10 7y ago
        The bad precedent is to let him get away with a slap on the wrist because soon enough you'll have ceo's left and right pumping and dumping on twitter whenever it's convenient.
        CivBase 7y ago
        Who was this convenient for?
      - catalogia 7y ago
        It sets a bad precedent to let Elon Musk get away with anything just CivBase is a fan of him.
        CivBase 7y ago
        What have I said to indicate I'm a fan of Elon Musk or Tesla? I've described his actions as "irresponsible" and "unethical" several times in this comment thread. I'd appreciate if you would refrain from associating me with groups you do not like just because you disagree with me. It's not constructive and it discourages people from challenging the thoughts of the groups they prefer to associate with.
        catalogia 7y ago
        The part where you say that Elon Musk getting sued for fraud is a "bad precedent". Or the part where you characterize his fraud as merely "irresponsible" and "unethical". Little in this entire discussion has been productive because Elon's fanboys are all delusional.
        CivBase 7y ago
        My cover is blown! How could I be so careless? I made the classic mistake of characterizing Elon as anything other than a stupid, egotistical tyrant! Everyone knows there is no such thing as shades of grey and popular figures like him can only ever be thought of as pure good or pure evil! You may have unmasked me, but we'll see who's laughing 10-20 years from now when I'll be rescuing children from caves on mars... and driving electric cars through hyper tubes... and... something about flame throwers! Seriously, though. Here's my real thoughts on Elon Musk. Keep in mind that I don't pay much attention to him, so this is probably not a great assessment. It's just my real impression of the guy. I think he is a billionaire stuck in his teens. He throws money at things just because they sound cool and that has played a huge part in making him famous. He's reckless, but his celebrity status ensures he will always stay a billionaire. It also ensures he will have plenty of clueless fans and plenty of angry anti-fans. Most people do not fall into one of those camps, but those who do are often quick to let you know it. I think he's irresponsible, he has a big ego, and his celebrity/billionaire/CEO status means there is serious potential for him to cause a lot of damage. He has done a lot of stupid things, but so far the collateral has been pretty small. I don't think it's fair to say everything he's done is bad, but you could spend an eternity debating how much good he's directly responsible for. He doesn't strike me as an idiot, but he also doesn't seem especially smart. I imagine he thinks of himself as pretty smart, but that seems to be a common trait among billionaires. I'd guess very little of his companies' success can be directly attributed to him. He comes across more as a rich investor and figurehead than a manager. Speaking of his companies, they also get a lot of media attention. Electric vehicles, autonomous cars, and space exploration are interesting subjects, but Tesla and SpaceX aren't the only names in those markets. Their brand popularity is just so huge that many people struggle to disassociate those companies from the technologies they work on. From what I've heard, the work conditions at Tesla and SpaceX are bad (long hours, high stress, poor job security) so I have no desire to work for either. From a customer perspective, I hear Tesla vehicles are very costly to maintain so I'll be cautious about Tesla if I every find myself looking to buy an EV. I don't currently trust self-driving car technology, so that's not even a consideration for me right now. Like I said, I don't pay much attention to Elon or his companies. I only commented on this one because I thought it was a good example of how dumb the stock market is. It encourages short-sighted behavior from publicly traded companies, it's painfully easy to manipulate, and I think it's dangerous how far some are willing to go to try and make it safe for investors.
tree3 7y ago
> At what point is the investor expected to take responsibility for bad investments based on speculation? How is making trades based on statements from the CEO speculation?
- CivBase 7y ago
  Elon tweeted that he was "considering taking Tesla private". It clearly was not a done deal. Evaluations were made based on speculation that Elon would follow through. He obviously did not. The stock value temporarily spiked and a lot of investors looking to profit off the ordeal ended up making bad investments and lost big. At the end of the day, the stock market is akin to gambling and sometimes you loose. Elon's actions were irresponsible at best, but I think suing him sets a bad precedent. There doesn't seem to be any evidence of insider trading. It seems to me like some investors are just mad that they lost money because they put too much stock in Elon's twitter feed.
  - thomaskcr 7y ago
    He said "funding secured", the board knew nothing of what was going on and scrambled to make it retroactively true. > because they put too much stock in Elon's twitter feed. That would be a wonderful argument, if the company had not put into an actual 8K that Elon's twitter is a source of official information about the company. https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1318605/000119312513427630/d622890d8k.htm https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1318605/000119312513... "Tesla investors and others should note that we announce material information to the public about our company, products and services and other issues through a variety of means, including Tesla’s website, press releases, SEC filings, blogs and social media, in order to achieve broad, non-exclusionary distribution of information to the public. We encourage our investors and others to review the information we make public in the locations below as such information could be deemed to be material information." "For additional information, please follow Elon Musk’s and Tesla’s Twitter accounts: twitter.com/elonmusk and twitter.com/TeslaMotors"
    - CivBase 7y ago
      > He said "funding secured", the board knew nothing of what was going on and scrambled to make it retroactively true. Yeah, that's pretty irresponsible. I don't see how it changes things, though. IANAL, but I suspect there's a difference between "follow Elon's twitter because he might release material information there" and "everything Elon tweets is material information". I have no desire to defend Musk or Tesla. The practice of distributing official information via social media posts is pretty sketchy. But that such an arrangement is even possible only continues to highlight how dumb the stock market is. The more I learn about this, the more it sounds like investors playing with fire and whining when they get burned.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

What Musk did was certainly unethical, but it highlights how dumb the stock market really is. At what point is the investor expected to take responsibility for bad investments based on speculation?

inopinatus 7y ago

That penance is reserved for small investors. They are Frank Wilhoit’s out-group in this matter.

soup10 7y ago

Nobody forced Musk to run a highly leveraged company that will collapse on itself when it runs out of cheap financing. At some point the music will stop.

CivBase 7y ago
And nobody forced investors to buy overpriced Tesla stocks. I'm not going to bat for Elon here. I just think it sets a pretty bad precedent for investors to be able to sue a person when they make bad investments based on that person's social media ramblings. If Elon or someone connected to him profited off the ordeal, then there might be something here. I haven't seen anything to indicate that, though.
- soup10 7y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Securities_fraud https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Securities_fraud
  - CivBase 7y ago
    I never said the lawsuit wont be successful. I just said I think it is a bad precedent. IANAL, so I can only offer amateur speculation regarding whether Elon's actions were illegal. His actions do not align with any of the "type of securities fraud" listed on that page, but they do fit within the broader definition given at the top of the page.
    - soup10 7y ago
      The bad precedent is to let him get away with a slap on the wrist because soon enough you'll have ceo's left and right pumping and dumping on twitter whenever it's convenient.
      - CivBase 7y ago
        Who was this convenient for?
    - catalogia 7y ago
      It sets a bad precedent to let Elon Musk get away with anything just CivBase is a fan of him.
      - CivBase 7y ago
        What have I said to indicate I'm a fan of Elon Musk or Tesla? I've described his actions as "irresponsible" and "unethical" several times in this comment thread. I'd appreciate if you would refrain from associating me with groups you do not like just because you disagree with me. It's not constructive and it discourages people from challenging the thoughts of the groups they prefer to associate with.
        catalogia 7y ago
        The part where you say that Elon Musk getting sued for fraud is a "bad precedent". Or the part where you characterize his fraud as merely "irresponsible" and "unethical". Little in this entire discussion has been productive because Elon's fanboys are all delusional.
        CivBase 7y ago
        My cover is blown! How could I be so careless? I made the classic mistake of characterizing Elon as anything other than a stupid, egotistical tyrant! Everyone knows there is no such thing as shades of grey and popular figures like him can only ever be thought of as pure good or pure evil! You may have unmasked me, but we'll see who's laughing 10-20 years from now when I'll be rescuing children from caves on mars... and driving electric cars through hyper tubes... and... something about flame throwers! Seriously, though. Here's my real thoughts on Elon Musk. Keep in mind that I don't pay much attention to him, so this is probably not a great assessment. It's just my real impression of the guy. I think he is a billionaire stuck in his teens. He throws money at things just because they sound cool and that has played a huge part in making him famous. He's reckless, but his celebrity status ensures he will always stay a billionaire. It also ensures he will have plenty of clueless fans and plenty of angry anti-fans. Most people do not fall into one of those camps, but those who do are often quick to let you know it. I think he's irresponsible, he has a big ego, and his celebrity/billionaire/CEO status means there is serious potential for him to cause a lot of damage. He has done a lot of stupid things, but so far the collateral has been pretty small. I don't think it's fair to say everything he's done is bad, but you could spend an eternity debating how much good he's directly responsible for. He doesn't strike me as an idiot, but he also doesn't seem especially smart. I imagine he thinks of himself as pretty smart, but that seems to be a common trait among billionaires. I'd guess very little of his companies' success can be directly attributed to him. He comes across more as a rich investor and figurehead than a manager. Speaking of his companies, they also get a lot of media attention. Electric vehicles, autonomous cars, and space exploration are interesting subjects, but Tesla and SpaceX aren't the only names in those markets. Their brand popularity is just so huge that many people struggle to disassociate those companies from the technologies they work on. From what I've heard, the work conditions at Tesla and SpaceX are bad (long hours, high stress, poor job security) so I have no desire to work for either. From a customer perspective, I hear Tesla vehicles are very costly to maintain so I'll be cautious about Tesla if I every find myself looking to buy an EV. I don't currently trust self-driving car technology, so that's not even a consideration for me right now. Like I said, I don't pay much attention to Elon or his companies. I only commented on this one because I thought it was a good example of how dumb the stock market is. It encourages short-sighted behavior from publicly traded companies, it's painfully easy to manipulate, and I think it's dangerous how far some are willing to go to try and make it safe for investors.

tree3 7y ago

> At what point is the investor expected to take responsibility for bad investments based on speculation? How is making trades based on statements from the CEO speculation?

CivBase 7y ago
Elon tweeted that he was "considering taking Tesla private". It clearly was not a done deal. Evaluations were made based on speculation that Elon would follow through. He obviously did not. The stock value temporarily spiked and a lot of investors looking to profit off the ordeal ended up making bad investments and lost big. At the end of the day, the stock market is akin to gambling and sometimes you loose. Elon's actions were irresponsible at best, but I think suing him sets a bad precedent. There doesn't seem to be any evidence of insider trading. It seems to me like some investors are just mad that they lost money because they put too much stock in Elon's twitter feed.
- thomaskcr 7y ago
  He said "funding secured", the board knew nothing of what was going on and scrambled to make it retroactively true. > because they put too much stock in Elon's twitter feed. That would be a wonderful argument, if the company had not put into an actual 8K that Elon's twitter is a source of official information about the company. https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1318605/000119312513427630/d622890d8k.htm https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1318605/000119312513... "Tesla investors and others should note that we announce material information to the public about our company, products and services and other issues through a variety of means, including Tesla’s website, press releases, SEC filings, blogs and social media, in order to achieve broad, non-exclusionary distribution of information to the public. We encourage our investors and others to review the information we make public in the locations below as such information could be deemed to be material information." "For additional information, please follow Elon Musk’s and Tesla’s Twitter accounts: twitter.com/elonmusk and twitter.com/TeslaMotors"
  - CivBase 7y ago
    > He said "funding secured", the board knew nothing of what was going on and scrambled to make it retroactively true. Yeah, that's pretty irresponsible. I don't see how it changes things, though. IANAL, but I suspect there's a difference between "follow Elon's twitter because he might release material information there" and "everything Elon tweets is material information". I have no desire to defend Musk or Tesla. The practice of distributing official information via social media posts is pretty sketchy. But that such an arrangement is even possible only continues to highlight how dumb the stock market is. The more I learn about this, the more it sounds like investors playing with fire and whining when they get burned.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]