7 ms·

Attorney General Barr Refuses to Release 9/11 Documents to Victims' Families

113 points by AndrewBissell 7y ago

fc_barnes 7y ago
Minneapolis field office memo.
- yasp 7y ago
  What's this?
  - voz_ 7y ago
    Not sure what OC meant. Googling led me to https://oig.justice.gov/special/s0606/chapter1.htm https://oig.justice.gov/special/s0606/chapter1.htm
willart4food 7y ago
> Barr says he cannot even explain why the material must stay secret without putting national security at risk.
- GCSAQCMIYI 7y ago
  I wonder if he is confusing the security of the nation with the security of the government.
  - dvtrn 7y ago
    Of course he is, and frankly I wouldn’t put it past this or even most administrations to do the same thing. Zero accountability. It’s disgusting. Yes. Downvote this. For calling out the issue of accountability for what it is on this topic: disgusting. I dare someone to defend it convincingly. Please someone defend this.
    - Threeve303 7y ago
      While I agree with you, I'll play devils advocate: The information in the documents is so bad, the damage it would cause would be worse than 9/11 itself. What other logical reason is there for keeping it secret for this long?
      - dvtrn 7y ago
        Okay, damage to whom? The American people or individuals with compromised interests? I am unconvinced it's not the latter and that's a shame akin to the reality that we have to find of squaring with that it took a comedian pleading with tears in his eyes to convince Congress to do the right thing and even authorize funds for first responder's families. Next question: More damaging than 9/11? Does that preclude the loss of life the morning of? To say nothing of the lives lost during the resulting military actions and regional fallout? Let me end this by asking this: does this of all things really need a devil's advocate? The devil seems to be doing just fine pro se.
        spamizbad 7y ago
        This information would probably make it politically impossible to maintain peaceful, diplomatic relations with Saudi Arabia. That’s probably why.
        catalogia 7y ago
        All the more reason for it to be made public. We all deserve to know the truth.
        dvtrn 7y ago
        If peace and diplomacy are the goals, conducting it in the dark terrifies me as to what steps the interested parties aim to use in 'getting there' or the questionable trades and concessions they make outside of the spotlight. I mean let’s turn this on its head: if peace and diplomacy are the goals, what do they have to hide? That’s a pretty universal outcome that I can’t imagine many people having a problem pursuing. Can we stop treating the devil like an indigent defendant now and look this diseased horse square in the mouth? This is kabooky-simulacra-governance disguised as security policy.
- lilott8 7y ago
  I apply a bit of hyperbole here, but I'm convinced that "national security" is a monotonic function that will eventually encompass everything in the federal government.
  - rdtsc 7y ago
    And a large part of it to cover up embarrassing details. I think it was in the discussions related to one of the embassy cables that I found this concept of 3rd order facts that leads to things being classified. It goes something like this. Say US is supporting some brutal dictator somewhere. The fact that he is evil is the main fact (1st order). People in that country and all over the world know it. That's the 2nd order. However the knowledge that the US govt knows (3rd) order is classified. The reasoning is because then the US govt might have to explain its inaction in regard to all the brutalities inflicting by that ruler.
    - baybal2 7y ago
      > And a large part of it to cover up embarrassing details. Yes, but it is more than that. Way more. Chinese ask me why in the world did Americans threw themselves on Saudis when they attacked them. Chinese don't understand that. They cannot comprehend it at all. It breaks their mind. Chinese there think there must be some completely bizarre, terrible secret that is the reason for that. I give them one popular explanation: Imagine, some serious guy in the suit comes to completely shocked people after 9.11 and tells there is a "completely bizarre, terrible secret" behind this mess, and "this is why you trust me on this, and we must go help Saudis with Saddam." Then years pass, US is in its 10th year of Iraq war. Everybody has since forgot Saudis, and can't care more why this has started when they have to finish this war at all costs. The guy serious guy in the suit keeps shouting "This is all Saddam who did all this! I have a proof, but is a state secret, just trust me!" Imagine now somebody coming out and telling everybody: "there was no terrible secret" to begin with, and you had no reason to listen to that serious guy in the suit for all that 19 years long war.
  - akudha 7y ago
    National Security, but what about the children? Those two excuses are the all purpose, catch all ones that work every time.
resters 7y ago
The only possible explanation is that Barr is trying to hide wrongdoing or negligence on the part of the US government. Any information relevant to national security (such as names, etc.) could easily be redacted.
- wahern 7y ago
  The other possible explanation is that it implicates high-ranking Saudi officials, which would make it politically problematic to maintain the existing diplomatic and security relationship. For example, while under seal it can't be used to civilly sue those officials, and it permits the DoJ to avoid prosecutions it might be politically forced to pursue. Such civil and criminal suits would disrupt the existing state of affairs. By keeping the secrets you keep closed the pandora's box of political pain, even though anyone who cares already knows what's in the box. People outside the government have read the files. As the article says, lawyers for plaintiffs in the ongoing civil suit saga have seen them, as presumably would the judge. If the documents detailed criminal activity on the part of the U.S. government we'd have heard something about it by now.
  - shiftpgdn 7y ago
    I'll be run out of town on a rail for this due to the Alex Jones association but what about the dancing Israelis? The limited amount of government documents released do genuinely seem to point to Israeli Mossad having some fore-knowledge of the attack.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - mirimir 7y ago
      Yes, they were tailing the Saudis through the US. That was reported by Salon, within days after the attacks. But maybe they were helping the NSA and FBI. And perhaps someone made the call that it wasn't important enough to risk blowing some other operation.
    - throwaway829 7y ago
beepboopbeep 7y ago
The man's credibility is long gone.
- lpah4all 7y ago
  Who the fuck would downvote this? It is established fact. Oh, that's right. It's 2020 and the Internet has no shortage of ideological idiots and information saboteurs. Talk about a thorny problem for a board like this.
  - kencausey 7y ago
    I have no problem with the statement. But as a HackerNews comment it is far too reductionist. At the very least, in my opinion, it should have been accompanied by at least mentioning supporting information if not actual citations.
    - lpah4all 7y ago
      Josh Marshall and his team at TalkingPointsMemo have been doing a fantastic job for these past four years documenting Trump's AG turnstile that finally landed him the cover-up artist Barr, whose lawyering for government criminals goes back to the Reagan administration. And that man is good at what he does, for he has no shame; it's team-first and damn the Constitution. And at some point, it no longer became reductionist to call Nixon a criminal. His AG ended up doing 19 months, and that was nothing compared to what these mofos are doing. Also, h/t to Marcy Wheeler at emptywheel.net for her fine reporting on the transgressions of the Trump administration.
      - AndrewBissell 7y ago
        Barr actually got his start even before the Reagan admin. In the 70s he helped the CIA fight the various measures that came out of the Church Commission to impose some measure of accountability on the intelligence community.
      - DrScump 7y ago
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
onetimemanytime 7y ago
For a reason or another, Saudi Arabia means a lot to the Trump admin and generally speaking, to all US administrations. Someone was chopped up and ...you know the story. So everyone in our admins closed both eyes and their three ears when the Saudis did this and that, because the Saudis are smart enough to be useful to us in very, very important things. So we protect them from small stuff, and maybe the Saudis buy this protection with concessions to us in certain things
- Smoosh 7y ago
  The reasons appear to be a total mystery! /s https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2018/oct/18/donald-trump/donald-trumps-claim-no-financial-interests-saudi-a/ https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2018/oct/18/donald-tru... https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/08/world/middleeast/saudi-mbs-jared-kushner.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/08/world/middleeast/saudi-mb... https://theintercept.com/2018/03/21/jared-kushner-saudi-crown-prince-mohammed-bin-salman/ https://theintercept.com/2018/03/21/jared-kushner-saudi-crow... https://washingtonpress.com/2018/04/08/jared-kushner-just-got-a-billion-dollar-mystery-bailout/ https://washingtonpress.com/2018/04/08/jared-kushner-just-go...
zyztem 7y ago
I was under impression that "28 pages" document was mostly declassified? Or this is some another documents?
dillonmckay 7y ago
Possibly related? https://www.heraldtribune.com/news/20190827/judge-rules-fbi-must-release-details-of-911-sarasota-investigation https://www.heraldtribune.com/news/20190827/judge-rules-fbi-...
pnw_hazor 7y ago
A link to the case file or Barr's filed declaration and memo would be nice. edit-to-add: Case No.: 1:03-md-01570 In Re: Terrorist Attacks on September 11, 2001 Can't find free access to Barr's recent memo filed.
- app4soft 7y ago
  > Case No.: 1:03-md-01570 Just found three PDFs with the title "Case 1:03-md-01570-GBD-FM".[0,1,2] [0] https://www.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/4caseyorderjan182005.pdf https://www.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/4caseyorderja... [1] https://www.law.upenn.edu/live/files/5886-30462015-09-29opinion-daniels-granting-ksa-shc https://www.law.upenn.edu/live/files/5886-30462015-09-29opin... [2] https://www.scribd.com/document/101651118/Judge-Orders-6B-in-Damages-for-9-11-Plaintiffs https://www.scribd.com/document/101651118/Judge-Orders-6B-in...
  - pnw_hazor 7y ago
    Those are old. Barr's recent declaration was filed 04/13/20 You can find docket information that shows when documents were filed but all the ones I see make you pay to see the documents. Doc No.: 6142 "DECLARATION of Attorney General William P. Barr in Support re: [6136] MOTION for Protective Order. Document filed by FBI."

113 points by AndrewBissell 7y ago

fc_barnes 7y ago

Minneapolis field office memo.

yasp 7y ago
What's this?
- voz_ 7y ago
  Not sure what OC meant. Googling led me to https://oig.justice.gov/special/s0606/chapter1.htm https://oig.justice.gov/special/s0606/chapter1.htm

willart4food 7y ago

> Barr says he cannot even explain why the material must stay secret without putting national security at risk.

GCSAQCMIYI 7y ago
I wonder if he is confusing the security of the nation with the security of the government.
- dvtrn 7y ago
  Of course he is, and frankly I wouldn’t put it past this or even most administrations to do the same thing. Zero accountability. It’s disgusting. Yes. Downvote this. For calling out the issue of accountability for what it is on this topic: disgusting. I dare someone to defend it convincingly. Please someone defend this.
  - Threeve303 7y ago
    While I agree with you, I'll play devils advocate: The information in the documents is so bad, the damage it would cause would be worse than 9/11 itself. What other logical reason is there for keeping it secret for this long?
    - dvtrn 7y ago
      Okay, damage to whom? The American people or individuals with compromised interests? I am unconvinced it's not the latter and that's a shame akin to the reality that we have to find of squaring with that it took a comedian pleading with tears in his eyes to convince Congress to do the right thing and even authorize funds for first responder's families. Next question: More damaging than 9/11? Does that preclude the loss of life the morning of? To say nothing of the lives lost during the resulting military actions and regional fallout? Let me end this by asking this: does this of all things really need a devil's advocate? The devil seems to be doing just fine pro se.
      - spamizbad 7y ago
        This information would probably make it politically impossible to maintain peaceful, diplomatic relations with Saudi Arabia. That’s probably why.
        catalogia 7y ago
        All the more reason for it to be made public. We all deserve to know the truth.
        dvtrn 7y ago
        If peace and diplomacy are the goals, conducting it in the dark terrifies me as to what steps the interested parties aim to use in 'getting there' or the questionable trades and concessions they make outside of the spotlight. I mean let’s turn this on its head: if peace and diplomacy are the goals, what do they have to hide? That’s a pretty universal outcome that I can’t imagine many people having a problem pursuing. Can we stop treating the devil like an indigent defendant now and look this diseased horse square in the mouth? This is kabooky-simulacra-governance disguised as security policy.
lilott8 7y ago
I apply a bit of hyperbole here, but I'm convinced that "national security" is a monotonic function that will eventually encompass everything in the federal government.
- rdtsc 7y ago
  And a large part of it to cover up embarrassing details. I think it was in the discussions related to one of the embassy cables that I found this concept of 3rd order facts that leads to things being classified. It goes something like this. Say US is supporting some brutal dictator somewhere. The fact that he is evil is the main fact (1st order). People in that country and all over the world know it. That's the 2nd order. However the knowledge that the US govt knows (3rd) order is classified. The reasoning is because then the US govt might have to explain its inaction in regard to all the brutalities inflicting by that ruler.
  - baybal2 7y ago
    > And a large part of it to cover up embarrassing details. Yes, but it is more than that. Way more. Chinese ask me why in the world did Americans threw themselves on Saudis when they attacked them. Chinese don't understand that. They cannot comprehend it at all. It breaks their mind. Chinese there think there must be some completely bizarre, terrible secret that is the reason for that. I give them one popular explanation: Imagine, some serious guy in the suit comes to completely shocked people after 9.11 and tells there is a "completely bizarre, terrible secret" behind this mess, and "this is why you trust me on this, and we must go help Saudis with Saddam." Then years pass, US is in its 10th year of Iraq war. Everybody has since forgot Saudis, and can't care more why this has started when they have to finish this war at all costs. The guy serious guy in the suit keeps shouting "This is all Saddam who did all this! I have a proof, but is a state secret, just trust me!" Imagine now somebody coming out and telling everybody: "there was no terrible secret" to begin with, and you had no reason to listen to that serious guy in the suit for all that 19 years long war.
- akudha 7y ago
  National Security, but what about the children? Those two excuses are the all purpose, catch all ones that work every time.

resters 7y ago

The only possible explanation is that Barr is trying to hide wrongdoing or negligence on the part of the US government. Any information relevant to national security (such as names, etc.) could easily be redacted.

wahern 7y ago
The other possible explanation is that it implicates high-ranking Saudi officials, which would make it politically problematic to maintain the existing diplomatic and security relationship. For example, while under seal it can't be used to civilly sue those officials, and it permits the DoJ to avoid prosecutions it might be politically forced to pursue. Such civil and criminal suits would disrupt the existing state of affairs. By keeping the secrets you keep closed the pandora's box of political pain, even though anyone who cares already knows what's in the box. People outside the government have read the files. As the article says, lawyers for plaintiffs in the ongoing civil suit saga have seen them, as presumably would the judge. If the documents detailed criminal activity on the part of the U.S. government we'd have heard something about it by now.
- shiftpgdn 7y ago
  I'll be run out of town on a rail for this due to the Alex Jones association but what about the dancing Israelis? The limited amount of government documents released do genuinely seem to point to Israeli Mossad having some fore-knowledge of the attack.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - mirimir 7y ago
    Yes, they were tailing the Saudis through the US. That was reported by Salon, within days after the attacks. But maybe they were helping the NSA and FBI. And perhaps someone made the call that it wasn't important enough to risk blowing some other operation.
  - throwaway829 7y ago

beepboopbeep 7y ago

The man's credibility is long gone.

lpah4all 7y ago
Who the fuck would downvote this? It is established fact. Oh, that's right. It's 2020 and the Internet has no shortage of ideological idiots and information saboteurs. Talk about a thorny problem for a board like this.
- kencausey 7y ago
  I have no problem with the statement. But as a HackerNews comment it is far too reductionist. At the very least, in my opinion, it should have been accompanied by at least mentioning supporting information if not actual citations.
  - lpah4all 7y ago
    Josh Marshall and his team at TalkingPointsMemo have been doing a fantastic job for these past four years documenting Trump's AG turnstile that finally landed him the cover-up artist Barr, whose lawyering for government criminals goes back to the Reagan administration. And that man is good at what he does, for he has no shame; it's team-first and damn the Constitution. And at some point, it no longer became reductionist to call Nixon a criminal. His AG ended up doing 19 months, and that was nothing compared to what these mofos are doing. Also, h/t to Marcy Wheeler at emptywheel.net for her fine reporting on the transgressions of the Trump administration.
    - AndrewBissell 7y ago
      Barr actually got his start even before the Reagan admin. In the 70s he helped the CIA fight the various measures that came out of the Church Commission to impose some measure of accountability on the intelligence community.
    - DrScump 7y ago

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

onetimemanytime 7y ago

For a reason or another, Saudi Arabia means a lot to the Trump admin and generally speaking, to all US administrations. Someone was chopped up and ...you know the story. So everyone in our admins closed both eyes and their three ears when the Saudis did this and that, because the Saudis are smart enough to be useful to us in very, very important things. So we protect them from small stuff, and maybe the Saudis buy this protection with concessions to us in certain things

Smoosh 7y ago
The reasons appear to be a total mystery! /s https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2018/oct/18/donald-trump/donald-trumps-claim-no-financial-interests-saudi-a/ https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2018/oct/18/donald-tru... https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/08/world/middleeast/saudi-mbs-jared-kushner.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/08/world/middleeast/saudi-mb... https://theintercept.com/2018/03/21/jared-kushner-saudi-crown-prince-mohammed-bin-salman/ https://theintercept.com/2018/03/21/jared-kushner-saudi-crow... https://washingtonpress.com/2018/04/08/jared-kushner-just-got-a-billion-dollar-mystery-bailout/ https://washingtonpress.com/2018/04/08/jared-kushner-just-go...

zyztem 7y ago

I was under impression that "28 pages" document was mostly declassified? Or this is some another documents?

dillonmckay 7y ago

Possibly related? https://www.heraldtribune.com/news/20190827/judge-rules-fbi-must-release-details-of-911-sarasota-investigation https://www.heraldtribune.com/news/20190827/judge-rules-fbi-...

pnw_hazor 7y ago

A link to the case file or Barr's filed declaration and memo would be nice. edit-to-add: Case No.: 1:03-md-01570 In Re: Terrorist Attacks on September 11, 2001 Can't find free access to Barr's recent memo filed.

app4soft 7y ago
> Case No.: 1:03-md-01570 Just found three PDFs with the title "Case 1:03-md-01570-GBD-FM".[0,1,2] [0] https://www.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/4caseyorderjan182005.pdf https://www.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/4caseyorderja... [1] https://www.law.upenn.edu/live/files/5886-30462015-09-29opinion-daniels-granting-ksa-shc https://www.law.upenn.edu/live/files/5886-30462015-09-29opin... [2] https://www.scribd.com/document/101651118/Judge-Orders-6B-in-Damages-for-9-11-Plaintiffs https://www.scribd.com/document/101651118/Judge-Orders-6B-in...
- pnw_hazor 7y ago
  Those are old. Barr's recent declaration was filed 04/13/20 You can find docket information that shows when documents were filed but all the ones I see make you pay to see the documents. Doc No.: 6142 "DECLARATION of Attorney General William P. Barr in Support re: [6136] MOTION for Protective Order. Document filed by FBI."