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It'd be sort of nice if they did go down. Then maybe people would think twice before doing business with brutal dictatorships in the future.
by joebananas 16y ago
It'd be sort of nice if they did go down. Then maybe people would think twice before doing business with brutal dictatorships in the future.
- parfe 16y agoDoes your IPhone Made in China count?
- joebananas 16y agoSure it does. Why wouldn't it?
- parfe 16y agoIt's a full on delusional platitude to discount dealings with brutal or dictatorial countries. You seem to imply there should be consideration in who we deal with based on the political conditions which is actually not even feasible at this point. Libya just happens to be the topic of the day so it's easy to look at the .ly and say "Well that's what you get." I type this on a keyboard made in Thailand, My monitors are made in China, as is my Cisco desk phone and Droid X. So is my coffee mug. Surprisingly, my coffee cup by International Paper is Made in the USA. That's the only thing on my desk
- danenania 16y agoDifficult != impossible. I'm certainly not one of them, but there are people out there who actually do carefully consider where and how the things they use are made. It's pretty lame to call someone who actually tries to take responsibility for him/herself as a consumer delusional.
- nowarninglabel 16y agoThe weak point in your assertion is that you ignore the fungibility of those items. Keyboards, monitors, desk phones, etc. are all fungible to a certain degree. Domains ending in .ly are not fungible. You can only buy a .ly domain an organization managing them for Libya. Furthermore, this isn't $10/year like many domains, but rather $75/year.
- parfe 16y agoDomains are easy for you to harp on because you have nothing invested in it and any claims you make do not actually apply to you. You'll happily fund places like Saudi Arabia, Venezuela and China because it's hard to avoid, but then come and post an effort-free comment about how someone else should act differently. I don't believe it's a weak point at all. I think you're creating a demarcation to eliminate the cognitive dissonance in asking someone else to expend effort while expending none yourself. Yes, cell phones are fungible, but my Droid X is not. Yes, keyboard are fungible but I can't get Dell to ship a differently branded keyboard.
- nowarninglabel 16y agoUh, no. Don't even think about getting into a "you don't do this" argument with me, because I have a list of exactly where most my spending goes, and I spent a year living in the desert on sustainable goods, don't own a smart phone, have bought everything I own at Goodwill, don't own a car, and work at Kiva. I know that might blow away your preconceptions, but think twice before harping on people that you don't know anything about. You are not a special piece of sunshine. The difference is I'm not going around like you trying to pretend like I am better than someone else, rather explaining the objective facts of the situation.
- parfe 16y agoUh, no. Don't even think about getting into a "you don't do this" argument with me, because I have a list of exactly where most my spending goes, and I spent a year living in the desert on sustainable goods, don't own a smart phone, have bought everything I own at Goodwill, don't own a car, and work at Kiva. Ok, lets address the holier than thou argument which is exactly what I'm talking about. You live in a city, have a featureless phone (still made in China no doubt! Maybe a Nokia?), played camper in the desert for a year (Sustainable as long as everyone else stays away!), buy up the affordable clothing that poor people could use, and work for a place that causes suicide thanks to usurious interest rates. That about sum it up? You going to brag about not owning a TV as well? Seriously though, I'm pretty sure my comment got the point across that I don't think I'm better than anyone else specifically because I don't give a crap about buying a shiny device from China, or paying Dell for a keyboard from Thailand. And that's why I find effort-free comments taking a moral high ground to be pointless. edit: I want to say I think Kiva is a great company implementing a great idea. I am only knocking it to say that the moral high ground is not defensible. It's always easy to spit downhill, but someone else can always spit on you. I certainly take no issue with nowarninglabel personally. Living in the desert sounds fun and educational. I just don't think there is a point where suddenly you reach a point that you can say someone else's dealings with a bad country is over the line while still claiming you're only dealing with a necessary evil. It takes the collective action of a government to actually effect change, such as NK or Cuba, and even then not so much. Free markets has done more for a free China than politics ever could.
- jrockway 16y agoMy keyboard is "Made in Japan". It did cost more than $5, but it's also better.
- YuriNiyazov 16y agoAre all the components made in Japan too?
- zandorg 16y agoMy projector lamp bulb is made in Japan, but the plastic housing is made in China.
- jrockway 16y agoMy guess is yes. It's a Topre Realforce keyboard; they have a proprietary keyswitch design that they make themselves, and the emphasis is on quality. I bet the microcontroller is mass-produced in China though. I don't really care; I avoid China for quality reasons, not for political reasons. I find that companies that manufacture their goods themselves in their own country tend to produce better products than companies that outsource the manufacturing to the lowest bidder in China. It is about cost and control; if you're willing to spend more and manage your own factories, your products are going to be better. This is not an absolute; obviously some companies do OK with China, like Apple and Dell and Lenovo.
- deleted 16y ago[deleted]
- parfe 16y agoEach "brutal dictatorship" is going to have their own nuances and idiosyncrasies but throwing down a blanket "don't deal with them" is flat out pointless. We deal with nasty governments on a daily basis. From the gas we put in our cars to our phones to the clothes on our backs to our coffee mugs (but not coffee cups!) on our desks. Then maybe people would think twice before doing business with brutal dictatorships in the future. I think sentiments like the above are just dull feel good platitudes that don't address reality. It's a statement that is easy for others to agree with yet doesn't really confer a coherent idea or commitment.
- joebananas 16y agoMy position is that one injustice does not excuse another. You seem to disagree.
- lsb 16y agoAdditionally, all sorts of phones use tantalum capacitors, which are mostly made from coltan, mined in the Congo. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coltan#Use_and_demand http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coltan#Use_and_demand
- tedunangst 16y agoThat link says 13% of the world's tantalum comes from the Congo, meaning a lot of it doesn't come from there ("Congolese coltan is globally speaking only a minor source of tantalum"). 100% of the world's .ly domain supply comes from Libya. WP also mentions that Sony, for instance, stopped sourcing tantalum from the Congo. On the other hand, WP says Sony's claim is "inconceivable", citing a web page that no longer exists.
- parfe 16y ago2008 - U.S. aims to boost Libya trade, trim deficit http://www.reuters.com/article/2008/10/06/us-libya-usa-idUSTRE4956TX20081006 http://www.reuters.com/article/2008/10/06/us-libya-usa-idUST... Libya are the bad guys this week. We were dealing with Libya in the Billions based on that article. Suddenly $75.00 for a domain name has become a moral hazard.
- Qz 16y agoThe billions in trade were a moral hazard too, just not one you so on the news quite so often.
- olalonde 16y agoObviously you haven't asked many Chinese whether they think their government is a "brutal dictatorship".
- parfe 16y agoAnd I've never spoken with a Libyan, Iranian, Cuban, Venezuelan or Belorussian. I'm also not chastising someone else for dealing with any of those countries. In fact, I'm saying the opposite. Even if I view another country in a negative light I don't see a way I can rationalize telling bit.ly they've made a bad decision, or Boeing they made a mistake with the Dreamliner, or my neighbor he's wrong for buying fuel from a Citgo station. Throwaway comments about taking a moral high ground are just that. And as bit.ly has not gone down, I don't see how there is a practical issue either.
- deleted 16y ago[deleted]
- sdizdar 16y agoI have to answer to this comment since this is the same argument governments had back in social and communist countries in Eastern Europe. It is not about whether majority of people approve government or think their government is a "brutal dictatorship". It is about what that government does with people who doesn't approve the government.
- jquery 16y agoSay what you want about the Chinese form of government, it's a lot more functional than most Western democracies.
- keiferski 16y agoI hope it goes down too, but for a different reason: so startups will stop using "ly" at the end of their name.
- lancewiggs 16y agoActually no - the RIGHT kind of business is good - as it means a middle class is created in those countries - and well, we can see the results. The right kind of business is in consumer goods - it's hard to have low aspirations when you are making iPhones or part of a call center helping solve first world problems. North Korea has no trade to speak of - and no hope that its population will assert itself.