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Terrifying. As a software engineer, shit like this scares me. I've felt like I'm on a steady, slow, decline for the last ~4 years. Is it just burnout? Do I

Terrifying. As a software engineer, shit like this scares me. I've felt like I'm on a steady, slow, decline for the last ~4 years. Is it just burnout? Do I need a new hobby? I used to love programming... Spent 12 hours a day jamming on it. Now, I struggle to keep my mind on a line of code for more than 5 minutes. At what point is it just burnout, or at what point is it something more? That's what's terrifying to me. I imagine that was a challenge for those close to Lee. We just know so little about the human body. Our ability to easily query the state of the body, to assess which functional components are working, and which need help, is dismal. I just hope that Lee, in whatever state he is in, isn't suffering.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
golemiprague 7y ago
Nah, pretty normal. This job is just not designed to grow with a person, for most people it is an endless loop of learning the same thing again and again in small variations every two years. No wonder it is boring and people get fed up with it.
01100011 7y ago
How old are you? I'm about to hit 45 and have been on that path for about 2 years now. It started with sleep apnea but I've had that under control for 16 months now. I feel like I'm becoming too slow to be a proficient coder, and I lack the people skills to move to management. I'd pick a lower-stress career, but I've got alimony and need the income. I've tried getting fit. I've tried improving my sleep. Vitamins, herbs, etc. The only things that work are tobacco(not nicotine, it just makes me sick) and armodafinil in small doses.
- techer 7y ago
  Yoga/Breathing?
battery_cowboy 7y ago
I'm here with you, I still love the idea of software, but I can't get myself to sit there and code even the most fun projects. I had a great idea for a project to start a business, I know people would need it, but I just can't get myself to do it. It's frustrating and makes me really depressed that I'm like this.
- marktangotango 7y ago
  I had this feeling for many years then finally put together 6 months of effort on an MVP that got zero traction. That great idea? Not so great in reality, I’d been kidding myself. So if it’s any consolation, great idea and great executions are really rare. The common advice is to build a landing page and get x number of signups for a beta before writing a line of code. Makes sense in retrospect.
bpicolo 7y ago
I think this is pretty natural. When it's fresh and you're learning a lot, programming is easy to keep fixated on. It's very instant-gratification early on. As you progress, the low hanging fruit dries up and goals have longer gratification cycles
dimxasnewfrozen 7y ago
After reading this I had to do a quick self-assessment. For the last few years or so (I'm 33, also a software engineer) I've noticed a pretty big decline in my mental state. I can't focus. I immediately forget what I just looked at, read or did. I completely zone out when people talk to me. I am just not present in any situation. What is strange is that I can actually notice it, not in real-time however. It's been worrying me for the last few months so much so that I started meditating which I've never done before. My wife mentioned seeing a therapist because she thought maybe I was depressed so I scheduled an appointment but it's been rescheduled due to the virus. I keep hearing about other programmers experiencing similar issues (yourself included) and I wonder if the nature of what we do somehow damages our brain in some capacity and we just don't know it yet. Obviously Lee's case is different but it's certainly scary. I hope he doesn't suffer as well.
- empath75 7y ago
  Honestly that just sounds like a mix of ADHD and depression. I wouldn’t worry about it too much.
  - astrange 7y ago
    That sounds like something to worry about the appropriate amount. Mostly by going to a doctor and getting a physical.
- celestialcheese 7y ago
  This is very similar to my situation, although I'm a bit younger. I've tried therapy and she recommending getting back on ADHD medication and experimenting with that. Haven't gone ahead with it.
- novok 7y ago
  Also how is your sleep. 6hrs/day in your 20s is different than 6hrs/day in your 30s.
  - f2000 7y ago
thaumaturgy 7y ago
I bet there are some aspects to this that lots of people could self-identify with. I have a bad habit of remembering a past that never was. I think, man, the code used to just flow so easily, and now it requires effort. But I'm just remembering the highlights; if I try a little harder, I can start to remember other days when it wasn't so easy. I forget my missed deadlines and remember my last-minute saves. Revisiting old code now and again helps to shake the illusion loose. Arranging life to spend a little bit less time on things that feel like work and making a little more time for things that excite you is a good medicine for this feeling and probably something everyone should do anyway.
warent 7y ago
I think the fact that you're reflecting on it means there's no actual degradation. Someone with Lee's disorder doesn't seem to be capable of self reflection at all. To me it doesn't really sound like he's suffering, especially given the fact that he doesnt really have meltdowns and freakouts. It sounds more like he's just reverting to a state where his behaviors and consciousness coming from the cerebellum/brainstem, i.e. living much more instinctually and in the present, like all other beings in nature. Yes it creates a big disconnect between him and average human society, but at the same time it seems like he's also freed from a lot of the shackles that come with the human mind, free to live moment to moment.
- eastdakota 7y ago
  This feels right. Even when he could express himself in a way I could understand, he never expressed himself as frustrated or suffering. The disease at some level seems to rob its victims from the ability to suffer. It’s hard to comprehend.
  - rubicon33 7y ago
    I'm curious. Before his disease got bad, when he was still working but maybe starting to show some of the first signs... Did he ever express any concern? Or was it entirely other people who noticed his decline, but he was oblivious?
    - eastdakota 7y ago
      He did not ever express concern. The weird thing about the disease is it’s not like Alzheimer’s where you realize you’re forgetting things. Instead it seems you lose the ability to realize. I think by the time he’d be concerned he had lost the ability to be concerned, if that makes any sense. Lots of people around him did. However, I don’t think any of us thought it was a disease. We just thought he was becoming a jerk or “couldn’t scale” as Cloudflare became a bigger organization. I was angry at him when he left. Felt like he’d abandoned this project we’d started together. I feel incredibly sad and guilty I didn’t even question whether he could be sick until when I heard his diagnosis about 6 months after he’d left the company.
Waterluvian 7y ago
Sounds like you're ready for your next career. If you're fortunate enough to lead a life and live somewhere that doesn't systemically lock you in, maybe think about starting over at something different.
nickm12 7y ago
I'm a 43 year old software engineer. I definitely do not have the ability to focus on coding (and mathematics) the way I did 20 years ago. It's difficult to describe why exactly, but it's sort of like my ability to reason formally is more prone to breaks in concentration and lapses. I can still do what needs to be done but it takes longer and I have less patience, especially for bit-twiddling. At the same time, I think I'm a better programmer than I ever was. The programming abstractions I design are better for years of work with different systems. Also, not being able to fit everything in my head as easily helps me write code that is more modular with simpler pieces. So I feel like I've lost the ability to do the trickiest stuff, but that is a small part of coding and I'll take the skills in overall design any day.
stef25 7y ago
I'm the same. Often incapable of grasping a solution which I know is just within reach. With some problems I can "feel" my brain just blocking, I can't visualise complex data structures. I'll spend days staring at a problem until I give up and ask a colleague who quickly points out the obviously solution. Pretty embarrassing.
datenwolf 7y ago
I'm in the same boat. Sometime in late spring 2018 my productivity plummeted. Same did my activity on StackOverflow. However I think what's a huge contributing factor is gaining experience. With every structure we come up with, every function and/or abstraction we also build a mental picture of all the possible dependencies it comes with. We see the bigger picture. And we see the same (potential) paths of failure again and again and again… I found that another favorite activity of mine didn't suffer: Designing electronics. I can still (productively) spend hours on tinkering with SPICE simulations, soldering in-situ projects, and so on. And recently I also discovered that it's not programming itself that has become harder for me. It is programming in domains I am extremely familiar with that I'm less productive in. If it's in an area I'm not familiar with, things are much easier, because I don't see the big picture yet.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

golemiprague 7y ago

Nah, pretty normal. This job is just not designed to grow with a person, for most people it is an endless loop of learning the same thing again and again in small variations every two years. No wonder it is boring and people get fed up with it.

01100011 7y ago

How old are you? I'm about to hit 45 and have been on that path for about 2 years now. It started with sleep apnea but I've had that under control for 16 months now. I feel like I'm becoming too slow to be a proficient coder, and I lack the people skills to move to management. I'd pick a lower-stress career, but I've got alimony and need the income. I've tried getting fit. I've tried improving my sleep. Vitamins, herbs, etc. The only things that work are tobacco(not nicotine, it just makes me sick) and armodafinil in small doses.

techer 7y ago
Yoga/Breathing?

battery_cowboy 7y ago

I'm here with you, I still love the idea of software, but I can't get myself to sit there and code even the most fun projects. I had a great idea for a project to start a business, I know people would need it, but I just can't get myself to do it. It's frustrating and makes me really depressed that I'm like this.

marktangotango 7y ago
I had this feeling for many years then finally put together 6 months of effort on an MVP that got zero traction. That great idea? Not so great in reality, I’d been kidding myself. So if it’s any consolation, great idea and great executions are really rare. The common advice is to build a landing page and get x number of signups for a beta before writing a line of code. Makes sense in retrospect.

bpicolo 7y ago

I think this is pretty natural. When it's fresh and you're learning a lot, programming is easy to keep fixated on. It's very instant-gratification early on. As you progress, the low hanging fruit dries up and goals have longer gratification cycles

dimxasnewfrozen 7y ago

After reading this I had to do a quick self-assessment. For the last few years or so (I'm 33, also a software engineer) I've noticed a pretty big decline in my mental state. I can't focus. I immediately forget what I just looked at, read or did. I completely zone out when people talk to me. I am just not present in any situation. What is strange is that I can actually notice it, not in real-time however. It's been worrying me for the last few months so much so that I started meditating which I've never done before. My wife mentioned seeing a therapist because she thought maybe I was depressed so I scheduled an appointment but it's been rescheduled due to the virus. I keep hearing about other programmers experiencing similar issues (yourself included) and I wonder if the nature of what we do somehow damages our brain in some capacity and we just don't know it yet. Obviously Lee's case is different but it's certainly scary. I hope he doesn't suffer as well.

empath75 7y ago
Honestly that just sounds like a mix of ADHD and depression. I wouldn’t worry about it too much.
- astrange 7y ago
  That sounds like something to worry about the appropriate amount. Mostly by going to a doctor and getting a physical.
celestialcheese 7y ago
This is very similar to my situation, although I'm a bit younger. I've tried therapy and she recommending getting back on ADHD medication and experimenting with that. Haven't gone ahead with it.
novok 7y ago
Also how is your sleep. 6hrs/day in your 20s is different than 6hrs/day in your 30s.
- f2000 7y ago

thaumaturgy 7y ago

I bet there are some aspects to this that lots of people could self-identify with. I have a bad habit of remembering a past that never was. I think, man, the code used to just flow so easily, and now it requires effort. But I'm just remembering the highlights; if I try a little harder, I can start to remember other days when it wasn't so easy. I forget my missed deadlines and remember my last-minute saves. Revisiting old code now and again helps to shake the illusion loose. Arranging life to spend a little bit less time on things that feel like work and making a little more time for things that excite you is a good medicine for this feeling and probably something everyone should do anyway.

warent 7y ago

I think the fact that you're reflecting on it means there's no actual degradation. Someone with Lee's disorder doesn't seem to be capable of self reflection at all. To me it doesn't really sound like he's suffering, especially given the fact that he doesnt really have meltdowns and freakouts. It sounds more like he's just reverting to a state where his behaviors and consciousness coming from the cerebellum/brainstem, i.e. living much more instinctually and in the present, like all other beings in nature. Yes it creates a big disconnect between him and average human society, but at the same time it seems like he's also freed from a lot of the shackles that come with the human mind, free to live moment to moment.

eastdakota 7y ago
This feels right. Even when he could express himself in a way I could understand, he never expressed himself as frustrated or suffering. The disease at some level seems to rob its victims from the ability to suffer. It’s hard to comprehend.
- rubicon33 7y ago
  I'm curious. Before his disease got bad, when he was still working but maybe starting to show some of the first signs... Did he ever express any concern? Or was it entirely other people who noticed his decline, but he was oblivious?
  - eastdakota 7y ago
    He did not ever express concern. The weird thing about the disease is it’s not like Alzheimer’s where you realize you’re forgetting things. Instead it seems you lose the ability to realize. I think by the time he’d be concerned he had lost the ability to be concerned, if that makes any sense. Lots of people around him did. However, I don’t think any of us thought it was a disease. We just thought he was becoming a jerk or “couldn’t scale” as Cloudflare became a bigger organization. I was angry at him when he left. Felt like he’d abandoned this project we’d started together. I feel incredibly sad and guilty I didn’t even question whether he could be sick until when I heard his diagnosis about 6 months after he’d left the company.

Waterluvian 7y ago

Sounds like you're ready for your next career. If you're fortunate enough to lead a life and live somewhere that doesn't systemically lock you in, maybe think about starting over at something different.

nickm12 7y ago

I'm a 43 year old software engineer. I definitely do not have the ability to focus on coding (and mathematics) the way I did 20 years ago. It's difficult to describe why exactly, but it's sort of like my ability to reason formally is more prone to breaks in concentration and lapses. I can still do what needs to be done but it takes longer and I have less patience, especially for bit-twiddling. At the same time, I think I'm a better programmer than I ever was. The programming abstractions I design are better for years of work with different systems. Also, not being able to fit everything in my head as easily helps me write code that is more modular with simpler pieces. So I feel like I've lost the ability to do the trickiest stuff, but that is a small part of coding and I'll take the skills in overall design any day.

stef25 7y ago

I'm the same. Often incapable of grasping a solution which I know is just within reach. With some problems I can "feel" my brain just blocking, I can't visualise complex data structures. I'll spend days staring at a problem until I give up and ask a colleague who quickly points out the obviously solution. Pretty embarrassing.

datenwolf 7y ago

I'm in the same boat. Sometime in late spring 2018 my productivity plummeted. Same did my activity on StackOverflow. However I think what's a huge contributing factor is gaining experience. With every structure we come up with, every function and/or abstraction we also build a mental picture of all the possible dependencies it comes with. We see the bigger picture. And we see the same (potential) paths of failure again and again and again… I found that another favorite activity of mine didn't suffer: Designing electronics. I can still (productively) spend hours on tinkering with SPICE simulations, soldering in-situ projects, and so on. And recently I also discovered that it's not programming itself that has become harder for me. It is programming in domains I am extremely familiar with that I'm less productive in. If it's in an area I'm not familiar with, things are much easier, because I don't see the big picture yet.