6 ms·

> So how do we proceed from here? Like we always do when our leaders fail us. Organise and rebel.

by perfunctory 7y ago

yters 7y ago
So on top of environmental collapse we can have social collapse as well? Sounds like a recipe for success.
- perfunctory 7y ago
  Rebellions are sometimes the only recipe for success. Think about Women's suffrage movement, civil rights movement, anti war movements etc.
  - yters 7y ago
    I agree civil movements and bloodless revolutions through the political process are good. Violent overthrows are bad, AFAIK almost always resulting in a much worse regime than the one being overthrown. The USA's founding is a fortunate divergence from the norm. More recently, look at the Bolshevik revolution, resulting in over 100 million dead.
    - pasquinelli 7y ago
      Yeah, how many are dead from the american revolution? And how many were lifted out of poverty by each revolution? Since you can apparently trace all of history following a revolution to that revolution, how do you add up these numbers? While we're at it, how many deaths do you pin on the british empire and the russian empire?
      - yters 7y ago
        How many were lifted out of poverty through capitalism, despite massive, bloody revolutions that resulted in genocidal regimes that killed untold millions of their own citizens?
    - perfunctory 7y ago
      Agree. I should be more specific next time. By "rebel" I don't mean violent overthrows. I mean peaceful civil disobedience. Btw, here is some science on violent vs. non-violent uprisings https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJSehRlU34w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJSehRlU34w
- mellow2020 7y ago
  Standing up is the opposite of collapse. Failure to stand up is required for the collapse to go ahead.
  - yters 7y ago
    Why do you think rebellion is synonymous with standing up?
    - mellow2020 7y ago
      It's not synonymous with it, it does entail it. Why would you think resistance against sleepwalking into the collapse of human civilization as something deserving of such a title, which would entail incredible suffering, is synonymous with "society collapsing"? To quote the White Rose: "If a person cannot even summon the strength to demand his rights, then there is nothing left for him but destruction." If someone person equates that with random fighting and murder that says nothing about resistance as such, it's very clearly attacking the weakest form of the argument.
- cultus 7y ago
  A social collapse would coincide with an economic collapse and lower emissions. Honestly, speaking as a former climate change-adjacent geophysicist, I'd take it. It is becoming fairly clear we will have revolutions. At some point, things will deteriorate to the point it will happen. Normalcy bias is a hell of a drug, and we are all sniffing it really hard. The ruling class is unwilling and unable to solve this or any other wide-scale societal problem we have. Ruling classes never yield power without force.
  - yters 7y ago
    Why do you prefer that outcome? Social and economic collapse could cost millions of lives, and mostly among the poorest parts of the world.
    - cultus 7y ago
      We're headed towards a collapse either way, with many, many millions dying. Very possibly billions over the course of this century. Either it's a major society upheaval leading towards positive change, or it's just general societal breakdown as civilization as we know it becomes impossible. Our current political-economic system is simply not up to the challenge, so not having upheaval is not an option. A comparatively mild collapse sooner is better than later. This really is an existential threat like we have never experienced.
      - yters 7y ago
        Have you considered alternative scenarios?
        cultus 7y ago
        Yes. This is something I think about quite a bit, since I did used to work on climate-change related geophysics. If we started combating climate change decades ago, we wouldn't need such a drastic change. Realistically, no real change will happen for another decade, but our backs are already up against a wall. Having waited so long, the changes required are unbelievably radical and painful, in that our entire way of life must change. AOC and Bernie's Green New Deal is woefully inadequate, and that's considered extreme. I can't see that happening when we can't even figure out how to make paper face masks.
seph-reed 7y ago
Seriously, who do we hit first, and how? How about big pharma and exclusively using water-boarding so nobody gets killed? Is that too far? What is too far? What is an is not acceptable in terms of punishment for extreme destruction of the earth and general oppression/enslavement of humanity? Are we really going to give them a slap on the wrist while torturing pot dealers?
- pubstik 7y ago
  I think torture is always wrong and calling for it is always wrong. Your comment, as responded to, has no place here and is hateful and vile, no matter how justified and entitled to violence you feel you are. Go soak your head.
  - seph-reed 7y ago
    You're harmless, and would never deserve such punishment. You don't understand this, but some people aren't like you and require hard boundaries. Hard boundaries as in pain. You have to understand: not everyone is like you. Not everyone is harmless.

> So how do we proceed from here? Like we always do when our leaders fail us. Organise and rebel.

yters 7y ago

So on top of environmental collapse we can have social collapse as well? Sounds like a recipe for success.

perfunctory 7y ago
Rebellions are sometimes the only recipe for success. Think about Women's suffrage movement, civil rights movement, anti war movements etc.
- yters 7y ago
  I agree civil movements and bloodless revolutions through the political process are good. Violent overthrows are bad, AFAIK almost always resulting in a much worse regime than the one being overthrown. The USA's founding is a fortunate divergence from the norm. More recently, look at the Bolshevik revolution, resulting in over 100 million dead.
  - pasquinelli 7y ago
    Yeah, how many are dead from the american revolution? And how many were lifted out of poverty by each revolution? Since you can apparently trace all of history following a revolution to that revolution, how do you add up these numbers? While we're at it, how many deaths do you pin on the british empire and the russian empire?
    - yters 7y ago
      How many were lifted out of poverty through capitalism, despite massive, bloody revolutions that resulted in genocidal regimes that killed untold millions of their own citizens?
  - perfunctory 7y ago
    Agree. I should be more specific next time. By "rebel" I don't mean violent overthrows. I mean peaceful civil disobedience. Btw, here is some science on violent vs. non-violent uprisings https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJSehRlU34w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJSehRlU34w
mellow2020 7y ago
Standing up is the opposite of collapse. Failure to stand up is required for the collapse to go ahead.
- yters 7y ago
  Why do you think rebellion is synonymous with standing up?
  - mellow2020 7y ago
    It's not synonymous with it, it does entail it. Why would you think resistance against sleepwalking into the collapse of human civilization as something deserving of such a title, which would entail incredible suffering, is synonymous with "society collapsing"? To quote the White Rose: "If a person cannot even summon the strength to demand his rights, then there is nothing left for him but destruction." If someone person equates that with random fighting and murder that says nothing about resistance as such, it's very clearly attacking the weakest form of the argument.
cultus 7y ago
A social collapse would coincide with an economic collapse and lower emissions. Honestly, speaking as a former climate change-adjacent geophysicist, I'd take it. It is becoming fairly clear we will have revolutions. At some point, things will deteriorate to the point it will happen. Normalcy bias is a hell of a drug, and we are all sniffing it really hard. The ruling class is unwilling and unable to solve this or any other wide-scale societal problem we have. Ruling classes never yield power without force.
- yters 7y ago
  Why do you prefer that outcome? Social and economic collapse could cost millions of lives, and mostly among the poorest parts of the world.
  - cultus 7y ago
    We're headed towards a collapse either way, with many, many millions dying. Very possibly billions over the course of this century. Either it's a major society upheaval leading towards positive change, or it's just general societal breakdown as civilization as we know it becomes impossible. Our current political-economic system is simply not up to the challenge, so not having upheaval is not an option. A comparatively mild collapse sooner is better than later. This really is an existential threat like we have never experienced.
    - yters 7y ago
      Have you considered alternative scenarios?
      - cultus 7y ago
        Yes. This is something I think about quite a bit, since I did used to work on climate-change related geophysics. If we started combating climate change decades ago, we wouldn't need such a drastic change. Realistically, no real change will happen for another decade, but our backs are already up against a wall. Having waited so long, the changes required are unbelievably radical and painful, in that our entire way of life must change. AOC and Bernie's Green New Deal is woefully inadequate, and that's considered extreme. I can't see that happening when we can't even figure out how to make paper face masks.

seph-reed 7y ago

Seriously, who do we hit first, and how? How about big pharma and exclusively using water-boarding so nobody gets killed? Is that too far? What is too far? What is an is not acceptable in terms of punishment for extreme destruction of the earth and general oppression/enslavement of humanity? Are we really going to give them a slap on the wrist while torturing pot dealers?

pubstik 7y ago
I think torture is always wrong and calling for it is always wrong. Your comment, as responded to, has no place here and is hateful and vile, no matter how justified and entitled to violence you feel you are. Go soak your head.
- seph-reed 7y ago
  You're harmless, and would never deserve such punishment. You don't understand this, but some people aren't like you and require hard boundaries. Hard boundaries as in pain. You have to understand: not everyone is like you. Not everyone is harmless.