4 ms·

> It's not just "trashing". It's in general being harder on things. I will treat a rented or borrowed item better than one I own myself, as would my friends, s

> It's not just "trashing". It's in general being harder on things. I will treat a rented or borrowed item better than one I own myself, as would my friends, simply because it is the right thing to do and because we would all hate to be handed a mistreated item the next time we rent something. What you're describing is a cultural issue of people lacking respect for other people, and it is by no means a universal trait in humanity. However a lack of respect usually correlates with immaturity, which is shown in your example from the military. Young men tend to lack the requisite level of maturity. When people mature, they usually start respecting other people and start caring about making things last for as long as possible. If the lack of respect persists well into adulthood, you're dealing with a major societal problem.

WalterBright 7y ago
It's great that you behave that way. > it is by no means a universal trait in humanity I didn't say it was universal. But it happens plenty enough that you cannot dismiss it when, for example, making public policy.
- KozmoNau7 7y ago
  I will refer back to my original post: >" That is caused by putting disenfranchised, poor and troubled people there, and no longer giving a damn about them once they have a simple roof over their heads." It is not an inherent nor universal trait of humanity. It happens because people often feel uninvolved, disconnected, and self-concerned to a fault; they do not trust their neighbors, because they have been given no reason to do so. They have been propagandized for decades with the message that they must be self-sufficient, responsible adults, and the way you measure that is in wealth, and that in that regard they are, at best, in competition with their neighbor. One consequence of this is not giving a damn about anything you do not own yourself, which is a sick mindset, a symptom of a sick societal order. Most of the western world has adopted this neoliberal mindset, and it is making us increasingly more callous, the longer it goes on.
  - WalterBright 7y ago
    There is the way people are, and the way you wish them to be. I'm only pointing out the way they are. I suspect you're in for a lot of disappointment.
    - KozmoNau7 7y ago
      You're pointing out how some people are, based on your own cultural and societal perspective, obviously one affected by negative experiences. I am merely pointing out that this is in no way universal, and that the behavior you've observed is not caused by human nature, but rather by societal pressures and the forced state of constant ego-centered competition that people find themselves in. Neoliberalism has made us callous and indifferent at best to the plight of our fellow human beings and the natural world.
      - WalterBright 7y ago
        There's no shortage of historical attempts to build societies around your ideals. They've all failed. Even when the only members are true believers in the idealism. It's almost as if such goes against human nature :-)
        KozmoNau7 7y ago
        The ideal I talk about is really just respecting other people and respecting things even if they are not yours personally. Not very complicated nor high-theory stuff. If you want to talk about socialism specifically, the biggest drawback of socialism is that if you do it too well, you attract the attention of the US military industrial complex. The entire modern history of Latin America exemplifies this issue. Neoliberalism and capitalism do not tolerate alternatives to exist, because they undermine the condtructed narrative that no valid alternatives exist.
        WalterBright 7y ago
        > If you want to talk about socialism specifically, the biggest drawback of socialism is that if you do it too well, you attract the attention of the US military industrial complex. The US is hardly the only place where socialism has been tried. Last I checked, over 10,000 communes have been formed in the US since its inception. They all failed. None were put out of business by government intervention. The Pilgrims tried a commune the first year (they starved). The Jamestown colony also attempted to work as a commune (they starved). The San Francisco Summer of Love commune lasted maybe 3 months. Remember the Jonestown commune? Israel has their kibbutzes, but they'd starve if they didn't receive generous taxpayer support from the Israeli government. The great thing about the US is there are no laws against communes. You are free to go set one up with your like-minded friends. Nobody is going to try to stop you. People do it all the time. But they never work. They never have, and never will, because of human nature.

WalterBright 7y ago

It's great that you behave that way. > it is by no means a universal trait in humanity I didn't say it was universal. But it happens plenty enough that you cannot dismiss it when, for example, making public policy.

KozmoNau7 7y ago
I will refer back to my original post: >" That is caused by putting disenfranchised, poor and troubled people there, and no longer giving a damn about them once they have a simple roof over their heads." It is not an inherent nor universal trait of humanity. It happens because people often feel uninvolved, disconnected, and self-concerned to a fault; they do not trust their neighbors, because they have been given no reason to do so. They have been propagandized for decades with the message that they must be self-sufficient, responsible adults, and the way you measure that is in wealth, and that in that regard they are, at best, in competition with their neighbor. One consequence of this is not giving a damn about anything you do not own yourself, which is a sick mindset, a symptom of a sick societal order. Most of the western world has adopted this neoliberal mindset, and it is making us increasingly more callous, the longer it goes on.
- WalterBright 7y ago
  There is the way people are, and the way you wish them to be. I'm only pointing out the way they are. I suspect you're in for a lot of disappointment.
  - KozmoNau7 7y ago
    You're pointing out how some people are, based on your own cultural and societal perspective, obviously one affected by negative experiences. I am merely pointing out that this is in no way universal, and that the behavior you've observed is not caused by human nature, but rather by societal pressures and the forced state of constant ego-centered competition that people find themselves in. Neoliberalism has made us callous and indifferent at best to the plight of our fellow human beings and the natural world.
    - WalterBright 7y ago
      There's no shortage of historical attempts to build societies around your ideals. They've all failed. Even when the only members are true believers in the idealism. It's almost as if such goes against human nature :-)
      - KozmoNau7 7y ago
        The ideal I talk about is really just respecting other people and respecting things even if they are not yours personally. Not very complicated nor high-theory stuff. If you want to talk about socialism specifically, the biggest drawback of socialism is that if you do it too well, you attract the attention of the US military industrial complex. The entire modern history of Latin America exemplifies this issue. Neoliberalism and capitalism do not tolerate alternatives to exist, because they undermine the condtructed narrative that no valid alternatives exist.
        WalterBright 7y ago
        > If you want to talk about socialism specifically, the biggest drawback of socialism is that if you do it too well, you attract the attention of the US military industrial complex. The US is hardly the only place where socialism has been tried. Last I checked, over 10,000 communes have been formed in the US since its inception. They all failed. None were put out of business by government intervention. The Pilgrims tried a commune the first year (they starved). The Jamestown colony also attempted to work as a commune (they starved). The San Francisco Summer of Love commune lasted maybe 3 months. Remember the Jonestown commune? Israel has their kibbutzes, but they'd starve if they didn't receive generous taxpayer support from the Israeli government. The great thing about the US is there are no laws against communes. You are free to go set one up with your like-minded friends. Nobody is going to try to stop you. People do it all the time. But they never work. They never have, and never will, because of human nature.