4 ms·

It irks me to see chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine being used interchangeably in the media. This study used chloroquine. Trump touted hydroxychloroquine. "Hy

It irks me to see chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine being used interchangeably in the media. This study used chloroquine. Trump touted hydroxychloroquine. "Hydroxychloroquine, a less toxic derivative of chloroquine, is effective in inhibiting SARS-CoV-2 infection in vitro" https://www.nature.com/articles/s41421-020-0156-0 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41421-020-0156-0

Cantbekhan 6y ago
https://xkcd.com/1217/ https://xkcd.com/1217/
mattkrause 6y ago
This particular article is not bad on that front. For example: "The similar drugs chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine have been pushed by Trump as a possible partial solution to the pandemic..." [Folks, the point is not about Trump here. The point is that the article's author clearly knows that CQ and HCQ are separate but related drugs].
- Florin_Andrei 6y ago
  > pushed by Trump Ah, yes, Trump, the world's leading expert in antiviral medicine. Stop politicizing this issue. Stop feeding the trolls and the demagogues. Let science find things out.
  - mattkrause 6y ago
    That's a verbatim quote from the article, and the point I was trying to make was that the article doesn't conflate them. It says that the drugs are similar (which they are, both chemically and pharmacologically) and have both received some hype. As for "politicizing the issue"...I'm a research scientist (and one who sometimes works with immunologists!). The data on CQ/HCQ make it look useless to me. The good trials show garbage effects and only the garbage "trials" seem to show any results. If you think insisting on careful analysis of data is political...good luck to you.
Carpetsmoker 6y ago
He has touted both; e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GuNbGC2D_8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GuNbGC2D_8 In-vitro results are worth following up on, but it is my understanding (as a non-expert) that it's very common that they don't pan out in actual humans. Turns out that human bodies and the way we interact with drugs are rather more complex than simple in-vitro situations. It's really to soon to recommend either drug. Even with 0 side-effects there is a high risk of it being a massive waste of resources better spent elsewhere. This is just classic Trump afraid of being seen as not being on the top of the world in literally every situation.
vonmoltke 6y ago
Besides that study just being in vitro (which is promising, but far from conclusive), the concentrations they needed to have an effect were really high: https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/are-hydroxychloroquine-and-azithromycin-an-effective-treatment-for-covid-19/ https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/are-hydroxychloroquine-and-... > I also note that the half-maximal effective concentration (EC50) for blocking viral replication in vitro was 1.13 μM and the half-cytotoxic concentration (CC50) was greater than 100 μM. These are high concentrations for a drug, especially the CC50.
- rurban 6y ago
  You need these high concentrations if you apply them too late. HCQ needs a few weeks to settle in the cells. What I want to see are studies applying HCQ before the infection (that's what the Chinese measured, Lupus patients being immune), are at least when they were tested positive and sent home. Not when the shit already hit the fan, and the mucus is in the lungs causing bacterial infections all over. Because then it's too late already.
morninglight 6y ago
Hydroxy what? You mean I bought the wrong stuff? https://leafbrands.com/hydrox/ https://leafbrands.com/hydrox/
- ineedasername 6y ago
  Just wait till the stories of imbibing hydrogen peroxide start coming in! /s
  - Avshalom 6y ago
    Well know quack Dr Joseph Mercola has been pitching this for a couple weeks now.
    - ineedasername 6y ago
      Wow, that's disturbing. The typical household variety isn't strong enough to do much more than give you a nasty upset stomach and maybe vomit a bit. I guess drinking a lot might cause irritation. But if quacks are peddling this, it's only a matter of time before someone gets creative and finds some of the 12% stuff in some hair dye kits and other beauty products. Internal chemical burns are pretty nasty stuff, and surviving the ordeal is option
- mattkrause 6y ago
  You were supposed to get the oreoquine!
outworlder 6y ago
> in vitro Lots of things work in vitro. Many things don't work when pumped into bodies.
- buboard 6y ago
  and in vivo https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.22.20040758v3 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.22.20040758v... However, this drug is all about politics, so i think it's pointless to discuss it here
  - cycrutchfield 6y ago
    And there are also randomized controlled trials that indicate no effect compared to placebo. Why aren’t you linking those?
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]

Cantbekhan 6y ago

https://xkcd.com/1217/ https://xkcd.com/1217/

mattkrause 6y ago

This particular article is not bad on that front. For example: "The similar drugs chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine have been pushed by Trump as a possible partial solution to the pandemic..." [Folks, the point is not about Trump here. The point is that the article's author clearly knows that CQ and HCQ are separate but related drugs].

Florin_Andrei 6y ago
> pushed by Trump Ah, yes, Trump, the world's leading expert in antiviral medicine. Stop politicizing this issue. Stop feeding the trolls and the demagogues. Let science find things out.
- mattkrause 6y ago
  That's a verbatim quote from the article, and the point I was trying to make was that the article doesn't conflate them. It says that the drugs are similar (which they are, both chemically and pharmacologically) and have both received some hype. As for "politicizing the issue"...I'm a research scientist (and one who sometimes works with immunologists!). The data on CQ/HCQ make it look useless to me. The good trials show garbage effects and only the garbage "trials" seem to show any results. If you think insisting on careful analysis of data is political...good luck to you.

Carpetsmoker 6y ago

He has touted both; e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GuNbGC2D_8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GuNbGC2D_8 In-vitro results are worth following up on, but it is my understanding (as a non-expert) that it's very common that they don't pan out in actual humans. Turns out that human bodies and the way we interact with drugs are rather more complex than simple in-vitro situations. It's really to soon to recommend either drug. Even with 0 side-effects there is a high risk of it being a massive waste of resources better spent elsewhere. This is just classic Trump afraid of being seen as not being on the top of the world in literally every situation.

vonmoltke 6y ago

Besides that study just being in vitro (which is promising, but far from conclusive), the concentrations they needed to have an effect were really high: https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/are-hydroxychloroquine-and-azithromycin-an-effective-treatment-for-covid-19/ https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/are-hydroxychloroquine-and-... > I also note that the half-maximal effective concentration (EC50) for blocking viral replication in vitro was 1.13 μM and the half-cytotoxic concentration (CC50) was greater than 100 μM. These are high concentrations for a drug, especially the CC50.

rurban 6y ago
You need these high concentrations if you apply them too late. HCQ needs a few weeks to settle in the cells. What I want to see are studies applying HCQ before the infection (that's what the Chinese measured, Lupus patients being immune), are at least when they were tested positive and sent home. Not when the shit already hit the fan, and the mucus is in the lungs causing bacterial infections all over. Because then it's too late already.

morninglight 6y ago

Hydroxy what? You mean I bought the wrong stuff? https://leafbrands.com/hydrox/ https://leafbrands.com/hydrox/

ineedasername 6y ago
Just wait till the stories of imbibing hydrogen peroxide start coming in! /s
- Avshalom 6y ago
  Well know quack Dr Joseph Mercola has been pitching this for a couple weeks now.
  - ineedasername 6y ago
    Wow, that's disturbing. The typical household variety isn't strong enough to do much more than give you a nasty upset stomach and maybe vomit a bit. I guess drinking a lot might cause irritation. But if quacks are peddling this, it's only a matter of time before someone gets creative and finds some of the 12% stuff in some hair dye kits and other beauty products. Internal chemical burns are pretty nasty stuff, and surviving the ordeal is option
mattkrause 6y ago
You were supposed to get the oreoquine!

outworlder 6y ago

> in vitro Lots of things work in vitro. Many things don't work when pumped into bodies.

buboard 6y ago
and in vivo https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.22.20040758v3 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.22.20040758v... However, this drug is all about politics, so i think it's pointless to discuss it here
- cycrutchfield 6y ago
  And there are also randomized controlled trials that indicate no effect compared to placebo. Why aren’t you linking those?
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]