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Thats not really it. US company (Apple, Google, Amazon, ...) understood the EU more than anybody an exploited every flaw they could find to pay as less tax as p

by maeln 7y ago

Thats not really it. US company (Apple, Google, Amazon, ...) understood the EU more than anybody an exploited every flaw they could find to pay as less tax as possible. The "magic fine" were not random and unjustified. Those country were already borderline, if not fully crossing the border, with a lot of regulation here. Country like France and Germany were sick of seeing a lot of profit made within their border while tax revenue flee elsewhere. The fine they given were not from vague plan, they were within the strict boundary of the law that those company keep playing with. Those same company are pushing for stricter and clearer regulation but are being faced with the opposition of other EU member who kind of profit from the practice of these company.

oh_sigh 7y ago
Is your argument that, say, Google, expected fines reaching into billions of dollars, but understood that they would end up with cash in their pocket by heavily avoiding taxes and just paying the fine? That seems like a risky game to play, because you don't know if the fines are going to be $1B or something more important like $100B or something.
- dathinab 7y ago
  That is pretty much the game Google and co played at least more than one or two times. Last pre-COVID19 example was probably Facebook trying to circumvent the idea behind GDPR by claiming their user use facebook because the _want_ advertisements and _the only way_ to provide customized advertisements is by thoroughly tracking everything the user does and therefore the they don't need any additional opt. in/out from the user. Which is both pretty much not quite true. (In GDPR there is a clause that e.g. if you sign a contract they contract doesn't need to state that the contract will store your name provided through the required name field and similar, you still need permission if you use the name for anything but "the contract", like e.g. statistics).
- ineedasername 7y ago
  Yes, this is precisely what companies gamble on. Take a look at the Double Irish [0] and then at the Dutch Sandwich. [1] These are accounting methods the deliberately take advantage of loops holes and arbitraging of tax regulations between jurisdictions, knowing full well some jurisdictions will take issue with it and it will be a fight. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Irish_arrangement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Irish_arrangement [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_Sandwich https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_Sandwich
mav3rick 7y ago
Let's see what happens when FAANG pull the plug in France. I can guarantee you the public will remove whoever was in power and it would be back to the status quo.
- heavenlyblue 7y ago
  It doesn’t seem to me FAANG want to see what happens if they do that.
- ineedasername 7y ago
  I think what you'd see is a fair number of members in the EU block take similar action, daring Amazon to do the same to them. The truth is, Amazon couldn't, in the long term, afford that: Oh sure, they could stand to lose the revenue by itself, but that's just a first-order effect. A second order effect would be the rise of a regional competitor to fill the vacuum. Then Amazon, even if they played nice, would have a hard time pushing back in to those markets, at the same time the regional competitor would, if wise, get on good terms with the EU regulatory regime and thereby give it some preferential treatment when trying to get into markets that Amazon had not vacated. A regional competitor could easily hit a tipping point and become an international one.
  - bradknowles 7y ago
    That’s why Amazon does it just for a few days. Long enough for the government and the people to feel the shock, but not long enough for a serious competitor to take advantage of.
  - Mirioron 7y ago
    >A second order effect would be the rise of a regional competitor to fill the vacuum. No, it wouldn't. Amazon in the US is amazing compared to what Amazon is in Europe. Packages take a lot longer to arrive and the choice is much worse. There isn't even a central Amazon EU website! Yet no competitors exist. Absolutely nothing is even close to Amazon. For whatever reason, the EU market is incredibly behind in these kinds of services.
maeln 7y ago
I meant to say company were borderline instead of country.

by maeln 7y ago

oh_sigh 7y ago

Is your argument that, say, Google, expected fines reaching into billions of dollars, but understood that they would end up with cash in their pocket by heavily avoiding taxes and just paying the fine? That seems like a risky game to play, because you don't know if the fines are going to be $1B or something more important like $100B or something.

dathinab 7y ago
That is pretty much the game Google and co played at least more than one or two times. Last pre-COVID19 example was probably Facebook trying to circumvent the idea behind GDPR by claiming their user use facebook because the _want_ advertisements and _the only way_ to provide customized advertisements is by thoroughly tracking everything the user does and therefore the they don't need any additional opt. in/out from the user. Which is both pretty much not quite true. (In GDPR there is a clause that e.g. if you sign a contract they contract doesn't need to state that the contract will store your name provided through the required name field and similar, you still need permission if you use the name for anything but "the contract", like e.g. statistics).
ineedasername 7y ago
Yes, this is precisely what companies gamble on. Take a look at the Double Irish [0] and then at the Dutch Sandwich. [1] These are accounting methods the deliberately take advantage of loops holes and arbitraging of tax regulations between jurisdictions, knowing full well some jurisdictions will take issue with it and it will be a fight. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Irish_arrangement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Irish_arrangement [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_Sandwich https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_Sandwich

mav3rick 7y ago

Let's see what happens when FAANG pull the plug in France. I can guarantee you the public will remove whoever was in power and it would be back to the status quo.

heavenlyblue 7y ago
It doesn’t seem to me FAANG want to see what happens if they do that.
ineedasername 7y ago
I think what you'd see is a fair number of members in the EU block take similar action, daring Amazon to do the same to them. The truth is, Amazon couldn't, in the long term, afford that: Oh sure, they could stand to lose the revenue by itself, but that's just a first-order effect. A second order effect would be the rise of a regional competitor to fill the vacuum. Then Amazon, even if they played nice, would have a hard time pushing back in to those markets, at the same time the regional competitor would, if wise, get on good terms with the EU regulatory regime and thereby give it some preferential treatment when trying to get into markets that Amazon had not vacated. A regional competitor could easily hit a tipping point and become an international one.
- bradknowles 7y ago
  That’s why Amazon does it just for a few days. Long enough for the government and the people to feel the shock, but not long enough for a serious competitor to take advantage of.
- Mirioron 7y ago
  >A second order effect would be the rise of a regional competitor to fill the vacuum. No, it wouldn't. Amazon in the US is amazing compared to what Amazon is in Europe. Packages take a lot longer to arrive and the choice is much worse. There isn't even a central Amazon EU website! Yet no competitors exist. Absolutely nothing is even close to Amazon. For whatever reason, the EU market is incredibly behind in these kinds of services.

maeln 7y ago

I meant to say company were borderline instead of country.