5 ms·

I also think B2B is a much less predatory place - most of the businesses have real money, want a real thing to help them make more of it, and are engaged in the

by hobs 7y ago

I also think B2B is a much less predatory place - most of the businesses have real money, want a real thing to help them make more of it, and are engaged in the process of making that work. There's plenty of bad actors (like any biz) but most of the time when I ship features everyone is happy, and no one is taken advantage of.

Nextgrid 7y ago
A friend of mine works at a B2B business. Every week they have a "lead forensics" meeting where they somehow figure out which companies visited their website and then spam them with unsolicited sales calls/emails.
- RMPR 7y ago
  Business intelligence, they call it.
- hobs 7y ago
  Indeed, there are definite bad actors as I alluded to, but just... don't work there. If your company starts to go the route of evil, you can find another job with people who are less morally bankrupt.
  - nitrogen 7y ago
    If we're defining sales as unethical, then... Where are you going to work that actually makes any money at all?
    - hobs 7y ago
      Spam is not sales, and you dont get that many conversions by selling to people who didn't want to buy your thing in the first place. Most of the enterprise sales cycles I have worked under go from 3 months to a year anyway, and the implementation time might take 8 weeks to a year+ - so drive by spamming doesnt really get results. (Payroll, Commercial Real Estate)
- sl1ck731 7y ago
  I think DataDog does this. I've vowed to never advocate for their products because of their relentless salespeople and however they got a hold of both my business and personal emails.
asdfman123 7y ago
I went to Stanford undergrad and honestly, the Bay Area tech scene (and Seattle from what I've noticed) looks unappealing to me. The culture is a turn off. I'd much rather have a 40 hour a week job somewhere else, where everyone understands it's a job and you can be your own person at home. It's hard to articulate, and I could write much more about it, but it's almost like the identity you have to don to fit in there feels too all-consuming. I don't want to pretend I'm changing the world instead of just installing a new social hierarchy run by the meritocratic elite. I don't want to pretend that programming is my only hobby -- I want to do other things than learn new Javascript frameworks at home. I like my nice 3 bedroom house which is just minutes from downtown and is less than 3x my annual income. It's admittedly an outsider's perspective but the only reason I would go back is to save up money for a few years then go somewhere else.
- opportune 7y ago
  I think you would be surprised just how many people see their job as a means to an end in Seattle/Bay Area, especially outside of the startup world. At FAANG and other big companies I think there is actually very little Kool-aid drinking compared to the smaller companies. And at a subset of those companies, people work normal hours and don't brag about things like working on side projects at home. Especially many of the parents I've worked with have been great engineers but at the end of the day just want to go home and spend time with their family, and it's fine from both a career and social perspective.
- proverbialbunny 7y ago
  There is a lot of things that could be said here: 1) I switched from being a software engineer to a data scientist in 2010, in part because of the culture. I totally get not enjoying the culture, though I do recognize how much it varies from person to person and company to company, so I try not to stereotype. But on some level, I get it. 2) We're opposites in some way. I've been writing code since I was 8 years old, and enjoy it. I'm the type of person who loves to find a fun and challenging problem and dive in so much I don't turn off. However, people like me are rare. In the last 15 years in the Bay Area, I've only worked with one other person who fit that criteria. Everyone else treated it like a 9 to 5 job. Me, I've never been one to judge or think negatively of that. That's how people are. It's normal. I get there are problems with SE culture, but some people being super passionate about what they do, to me isn't one of them. I don't believe I've ever annoyed anyone, bothered anyone after hours, or done anything unreasonable, and if I did I would appreciate people letting me know in a 1-on-1 fashion. The last thing I want to do is bother my coworkers. 3) You're on ycombinator, the center of Bay Area tech culture. Frankly, I'm baffled you like hacker news, for the people who like this kind of stuff after work hours, yet at the same time are anti that. YC is the heart of tech passion, and if you don't like it, why are you here? Not judging. Your comments and views are valuable. I'm asking out of genuine curiosity.

by hobs 7y ago

Nextgrid 7y ago

A friend of mine works at a B2B business. Every week they have a "lead forensics" meeting where they somehow figure out which companies visited their website and then spam them with unsolicited sales calls/emails.

RMPR 7y ago
Business intelligence, they call it.
hobs 7y ago
Indeed, there are definite bad actors as I alluded to, but just... don't work there. If your company starts to go the route of evil, you can find another job with people who are less morally bankrupt.
- nitrogen 7y ago
  If we're defining sales as unethical, then... Where are you going to work that actually makes any money at all?
  - hobs 7y ago
    Spam is not sales, and you dont get that many conversions by selling to people who didn't want to buy your thing in the first place. Most of the enterprise sales cycles I have worked under go from 3 months to a year anyway, and the implementation time might take 8 weeks to a year+ - so drive by spamming doesnt really get results. (Payroll, Commercial Real Estate)
sl1ck731 7y ago
I think DataDog does this. I've vowed to never advocate for their products because of their relentless salespeople and however they got a hold of both my business and personal emails.

asdfman123 7y ago

I went to Stanford undergrad and honestly, the Bay Area tech scene (and Seattle from what I've noticed) looks unappealing to me. The culture is a turn off. I'd much rather have a 40 hour a week job somewhere else, where everyone understands it's a job and you can be your own person at home. It's hard to articulate, and I could write much more about it, but it's almost like the identity you have to don to fit in there feels too all-consuming. I don't want to pretend I'm changing the world instead of just installing a new social hierarchy run by the meritocratic elite. I don't want to pretend that programming is my only hobby -- I want to do other things than learn new Javascript frameworks at home. I like my nice 3 bedroom house which is just minutes from downtown and is less than 3x my annual income. It's admittedly an outsider's perspective but the only reason I would go back is to save up money for a few years then go somewhere else.

opportune 7y ago
I think you would be surprised just how many people see their job as a means to an end in Seattle/Bay Area, especially outside of the startup world. At FAANG and other big companies I think there is actually very little Kool-aid drinking compared to the smaller companies. And at a subset of those companies, people work normal hours and don't brag about things like working on side projects at home. Especially many of the parents I've worked with have been great engineers but at the end of the day just want to go home and spend time with their family, and it's fine from both a career and social perspective.
proverbialbunny 7y ago
There is a lot of things that could be said here: 1) I switched from being a software engineer to a data scientist in 2010, in part because of the culture. I totally get not enjoying the culture, though I do recognize how much it varies from person to person and company to company, so I try not to stereotype. But on some level, I get it. 2) We're opposites in some way. I've been writing code since I was 8 years old, and enjoy it. I'm the type of person who loves to find a fun and challenging problem and dive in so much I don't turn off. However, people like me are rare. In the last 15 years in the Bay Area, I've only worked with one other person who fit that criteria. Everyone else treated it like a 9 to 5 job. Me, I've never been one to judge or think negatively of that. That's how people are. It's normal. I get there are problems with SE culture, but some people being super passionate about what they do, to me isn't one of them. I don't believe I've ever annoyed anyone, bothered anyone after hours, or done anything unreasonable, and if I did I would appreciate people letting me know in a 1-on-1 fashion. The last thing I want to do is bother my coworkers. 3) You're on ycombinator, the center of Bay Area tech culture. Frankly, I'm baffled you like hacker news, for the people who like this kind of stuff after work hours, yet at the same time are anti that. YC is the heart of tech passion, and if you don't like it, why are you here? Not judging. Your comments and views are valuable. I'm asking out of genuine curiosity.