4 ms·

Coronavirus lockdown: German lawyer detained for opposition (Apr. 14)

22 points by eternalban 7y ago

def- 7y ago
See also this subthread from yesterday about the same topic: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22865408 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22865408
s9w 7y ago
I've followed this case with great interest over the last days. And as much as I would have like things to be like they seem - our government silencing once of the only opposing voices (like they did often in the last years) - it's not like that this time. You can read the things she had written on her page and even listen to the phone call with her sister where she describes the entire ordeal. Frankly: She's a nutjob.
- detaro 7y ago
  The website takedown seemed unnecessary and questionable (I'd personally hope it will be found to be wrong), if her description of police behavior is accurate they were more violent than necessary. Which means this case needs to be watched and makes looking at her mental health look bad, even if probably justified.
  - s9w 7y ago
    The site was always up for me but yeah maybe someone did intervene. Often those are the hosters themselves. I don't think our government is competent enough to close websites this fast even if they wanted. These cases of unvoluntarily hospitalizations are always difficult and deserve to be watched. I just wanted to put the case into context for non-Germans from what I could gather. And at the very least she's shown some very odd behaviour, which supports the police version.
    - tastroder 7y ago
      I did not follow this issue closely when it happened, is there a credible source on who took the website down yet? That honestly sounds a bit quicker than German LE normally acts in IT matters. edit: ah great, thanks.
      - detaro 7y ago
        T-Online reported that the hoster (1&1 Ionos) did it after a "police request" (other media reports referenced T-Online for this detail): https://www.t-online.de/nachrichten/deutschland/id_87685030/kritik-an-corona-massnahmen-ermittler-sperren-homepage-von-coronoai-anwaeltin.html https://www.t-online.de/nachrichten/deutschland/id_87685030/...
lispm 7y ago
she was detained because of her weird behavior and was released on the same day Earlier she declared the various restrictions in Germany because of Corona for ended. She ordered Germany to end closing of shops, etc... She also ordered Germans to only drive 130 km/h on the Autobahn. http://www.beatebahner.de/lib.medien/Corona%20Auferstehungs%20Verordnung.pdf http://www.beatebahner.de/lib.medien/Corona%20Auferstehungs%... Weird...
- deleted 7y ago
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- detaro 7y ago
  Not on the same day, but apparently in the meantime: https://www.welt.de/vermischtes/article207246011/Heidelberg-Anwaeltin-Beate-Bahner-in-Psychiatrie-eingewiesen.html https://www.welt.de/vermischtes/article207246011/Heidelberg-... (link posted by /u/tastroder below)
_tk_ 7y ago
This is fake. https://www.presseportal.de/blaulicht/pm/14915/4571083 https://www.presseportal.de/blaulicht/pm/14915/4571083 Google translate: "There are currently reports in public, especially on the Internet, that the accused are forced to be placed in a psychiatric clinic. To this end, the public prosecutor's office in Heidelberg and the police headquarters in Mannheim state that neither the placement of the accused in a psychiatric clinic nor any other coercive measure was ordered as part of the criminal investigation against the accused."
- eternalban 7y ago
  It's machine translation, but that is -not- saying she was not "[placed] in a psychiatric clinic nor any other coercive measure was ordered". It is simply asserting that these actions, which did take place, were "[not] ordered as part of the criminal investigation". Did I read it wrong?
- atomashpolskiy 7y ago
  Saxony wants to block quarantine refusers in psychiatric hospitals https://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article207198029/Coronavirus-Sachsen-will-Quarantaene-Verweigerer-in-Psychiatrien-sperren.html https://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article207198029/Cor... Conspiracy or Normal Intervention by the Aargau Authorities? https://www.srf.ch/news/regional/aargau-solothurn/festnahme-von-corona-kritiker-verschwoerung-oder-normale-intervention-der-aargauer-behoerden https://www.srf.ch/news/regional/aargau-solothurn/festnahme-... Ah, good old info wars.
- detaro 7y ago
  > as part of the criminal investigation Here's the statement about taking her into the clinic: https://www.presseportal.de/blaulicht/pm/14915/4571057 https://www.presseportal.de/blaulicht/pm/14915/4571057 Please be more careful with the label fake.
  - tastroder 7y ago
    > Please be more careful with the label fake. What you posted does not contradict that conclusion. Police thought medical advice was in order since she was acting paranoid, she attacked the officers. Hardly the dream conspiracy theory she makes it out to be. German police does not determine if somebody belongs in a psychiatric clinic, they merely presented her in front of somebody to assess if she is a harm to herself or others in that case.
atomashpolskiy 7y ago
On a related note: What No One Is Saying About the Corona Crisis by J. Corbett https://youtu.be/lmHRYzF0dyQ https://youtu.be/lmHRYzF0dyQ Each and every basic human right already is or is going to be violated and annihilated on the premise of this "pandemic". It's time to question, what's your line in the sand here, and if you have a line in the sand at all, and what you're going to do, when the police breaks into your home. How far is too far? There was one comment that really states it brilliantly: "As someone with a compromised immune system, I want to put out there that I don't want you, or anyone you know to have to be out of a job, or unable to make ends meet, in an effort to protect me from getting CV. I don't need any of this, as I am an adult, capable of protecting myself. If I felt that this virus were a danger, I would stay home, and restrict my own movement to prevent an illness. I would never expect others to surrender their movement for my benefit. The worst part of this event, is the economic impact of having so much of the workforce without work. Many folks live hand to mouth, and it would appear that the people in charge either didn't think of the financial impact of those folks, or they just don't care. The bills don't stop coming, even though the paychecks have, even my wife has been laid off, and she recently discovered that her employer is in chapter 11 bankruptcy. So, who knows if she will even have a job at the end of this... My oldest daughter is also unemployed as a consequence of the shutdowns. I am certain that there are thousands of others going through the same thing right now. It is a real shame. This lockdown needs to end. If people want to stay home for a couple more weeks, let them do it without penalty. If people want to open their business, let them. It's time to stop this collective madness." This is fucking serious. This is more serious than anything before. As serious as it can get. And absolutely no one has the idea of what can be done on the individual or even collective level to fight back.
tastroder 7y ago
"Confinement of whistleblowers in psychiatric institutions, an old Soviet technique," yeah... great, credible reporting right there. /s This person seems about as credible as any Reichsbürger, the German equivalent of sovereign citizens. She continued to spew her hoax crap since day 1 of her reasonable temporary detention because they gave her phone to her, and she's free again. If you're looking for erosion of democracy, this isn't it. It's, besides the usual minor shortcomings, a system of health care and authority working as intended.
- detaro 7y ago
  > and she's free again source?
  - tastroder 7y ago
    https://www.welt.de/vermischtes/article207246011/Heidelberg-Anwaeltin-Beate-Bahner-in-Psychiatrie-eingewiesen.html https://www.welt.de/vermischtes/article207246011/Heidelberg-... "Die am Ostersonntag in die Psychiatrie gebrachte Anwältin hat inzwischen die Einrichtung verlassen können. Das bestätigte die Klinik am Mittwoch gegenüber t-online." The bar to hold somebody in a psychiatric environment against their will is pretty high in Germany.
    - detaro 7y ago
      Thanks! I had seen a report that the official decision about this was to be made today, but nothing about the result yet.
einpoklum 7y ago
The most outrageous part is committing that lawyer into a psychiatric institution. (Almost) unbelievable. More generally, the Corona virus is not an excuse to disallow protest activity, at the very least - even if one believes that such activity endangers the protesters' health. Not to mention the fact that it is quite possible (though perhaps less effective) to protest while maintaining a 2-meter distance from others.

22 points by eternalban 7y ago

def- 7y ago

See also this subthread from yesterday about the same topic: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22865408 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22865408

s9w 7y ago

I've followed this case with great interest over the last days. And as much as I would have like things to be like they seem - our government silencing once of the only opposing voices (like they did often in the last years) - it's not like that this time. You can read the things she had written on her page and even listen to the phone call with her sister where she describes the entire ordeal. Frankly: She's a nutjob.

detaro 7y ago
The website takedown seemed unnecessary and questionable (I'd personally hope it will be found to be wrong), if her description of police behavior is accurate they were more violent than necessary. Which means this case needs to be watched and makes looking at her mental health look bad, even if probably justified.
- s9w 7y ago
  The site was always up for me but yeah maybe someone did intervene. Often those are the hosters themselves. I don't think our government is competent enough to close websites this fast even if they wanted. These cases of unvoluntarily hospitalizations are always difficult and deserve to be watched. I just wanted to put the case into context for non-Germans from what I could gather. And at the very least she's shown some very odd behaviour, which supports the police version.
  - tastroder 7y ago
    I did not follow this issue closely when it happened, is there a credible source on who took the website down yet? That honestly sounds a bit quicker than German LE normally acts in IT matters. edit: ah great, thanks.
    - detaro 7y ago
      T-Online reported that the hoster (1&1 Ionos) did it after a "police request" (other media reports referenced T-Online for this detail): https://www.t-online.de/nachrichten/deutschland/id_87685030/kritik-an-corona-massnahmen-ermittler-sperren-homepage-von-coronoai-anwaeltin.html https://www.t-online.de/nachrichten/deutschland/id_87685030/...

lispm 7y ago

she was detained because of her weird behavior and was released on the same day Earlier she declared the various restrictions in Germany because of Corona for ended. She ordered Germany to end closing of shops, etc... She also ordered Germans to only drive 130 km/h on the Autobahn. http://www.beatebahner.de/lib.medien/Corona%20Auferstehungs%20Verordnung.pdf http://www.beatebahner.de/lib.medien/Corona%20Auferstehungs%... Weird...

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
detaro 7y ago
Not on the same day, but apparently in the meantime: https://www.welt.de/vermischtes/article207246011/Heidelberg-Anwaeltin-Beate-Bahner-in-Psychiatrie-eingewiesen.html https://www.welt.de/vermischtes/article207246011/Heidelberg-... (link posted by /u/tastroder below)

_tk_ 7y ago

This is fake. https://www.presseportal.de/blaulicht/pm/14915/4571083 https://www.presseportal.de/blaulicht/pm/14915/4571083 Google translate: "There are currently reports in public, especially on the Internet, that the accused are forced to be placed in a psychiatric clinic. To this end, the public prosecutor's office in Heidelberg and the police headquarters in Mannheim state that neither the placement of the accused in a psychiatric clinic nor any other coercive measure was ordered as part of the criminal investigation against the accused."

eternalban 7y ago
It's machine translation, but that is -not- saying she was not "[placed] in a psychiatric clinic nor any other coercive measure was ordered". It is simply asserting that these actions, which did take place, were "[not] ordered as part of the criminal investigation". Did I read it wrong?
atomashpolskiy 7y ago
Saxony wants to block quarantine refusers in psychiatric hospitals https://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article207198029/Coronavirus-Sachsen-will-Quarantaene-Verweigerer-in-Psychiatrien-sperren.html https://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article207198029/Cor... Conspiracy or Normal Intervention by the Aargau Authorities? https://www.srf.ch/news/regional/aargau-solothurn/festnahme-von-corona-kritiker-verschwoerung-oder-normale-intervention-der-aargauer-behoerden https://www.srf.ch/news/regional/aargau-solothurn/festnahme-... Ah, good old info wars.
detaro 7y ago
> as part of the criminal investigation Here's the statement about taking her into the clinic: https://www.presseportal.de/blaulicht/pm/14915/4571057 https://www.presseportal.de/blaulicht/pm/14915/4571057 Please be more careful with the label fake.
- tastroder 7y ago
  > Please be more careful with the label fake. What you posted does not contradict that conclusion. Police thought medical advice was in order since she was acting paranoid, she attacked the officers. Hardly the dream conspiracy theory she makes it out to be. German police does not determine if somebody belongs in a psychiatric clinic, they merely presented her in front of somebody to assess if she is a harm to herself or others in that case.

atomashpolskiy 7y ago

On a related note: What No One Is Saying About the Corona Crisis by J. Corbett https://youtu.be/lmHRYzF0dyQ https://youtu.be/lmHRYzF0dyQ Each and every basic human right already is or is going to be violated and annihilated on the premise of this "pandemic". It's time to question, what's your line in the sand here, and if you have a line in the sand at all, and what you're going to do, when the police breaks into your home. How far is too far? There was one comment that really states it brilliantly: "As someone with a compromised immune system, I want to put out there that I don't want you, or anyone you know to have to be out of a job, or unable to make ends meet, in an effort to protect me from getting CV. I don't need any of this, as I am an adult, capable of protecting myself. If I felt that this virus were a danger, I would stay home, and restrict my own movement to prevent an illness. I would never expect others to surrender their movement for my benefit. The worst part of this event, is the economic impact of having so much of the workforce without work. Many folks live hand to mouth, and it would appear that the people in charge either didn't think of the financial impact of those folks, or they just don't care. The bills don't stop coming, even though the paychecks have, even my wife has been laid off, and she recently discovered that her employer is in chapter 11 bankruptcy. So, who knows if she will even have a job at the end of this... My oldest daughter is also unemployed as a consequence of the shutdowns. I am certain that there are thousands of others going through the same thing right now. It is a real shame. This lockdown needs to end. If people want to stay home for a couple more weeks, let them do it without penalty. If people want to open their business, let them. It's time to stop this collective madness." This is fucking serious. This is more serious than anything before. As serious as it can get. And absolutely no one has the idea of what can be done on the individual or even collective level to fight back.

tastroder 7y ago

"Confinement of whistleblowers in psychiatric institutions, an old Soviet technique," yeah... great, credible reporting right there. /s This person seems about as credible as any Reichsbürger, the German equivalent of sovereign citizens. She continued to spew her hoax crap since day 1 of her reasonable temporary detention because they gave her phone to her, and she's free again. If you're looking for erosion of democracy, this isn't it. It's, besides the usual minor shortcomings, a system of health care and authority working as intended.

detaro 7y ago
> and she's free again source?
- tastroder 7y ago
  https://www.welt.de/vermischtes/article207246011/Heidelberg-Anwaeltin-Beate-Bahner-in-Psychiatrie-eingewiesen.html https://www.welt.de/vermischtes/article207246011/Heidelberg-... "Die am Ostersonntag in die Psychiatrie gebrachte Anwältin hat inzwischen die Einrichtung verlassen können. Das bestätigte die Klinik am Mittwoch gegenüber t-online." The bar to hold somebody in a psychiatric environment against their will is pretty high in Germany.
  - detaro 7y ago
    Thanks! I had seen a report that the official decision about this was to be made today, but nothing about the result yet.

einpoklum 7y ago

The most outrageous part is committing that lawyer into a psychiatric institution. (Almost) unbelievable. More generally, the Corona virus is not an excuse to disallow protest activity, at the very least - even if one believes that such activity endangers the protesters' health. Not to mention the fact that it is quite possible (though perhaps less effective) to protest while maintaining a 2-meter distance from others.