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> On a per capita basis sweden isn't really more worse off than many other countries that have shutdown. This is so untrue. Norway and Denmark had initially m

by chewz 7y ago

> On a per capita basis sweden isn't really more worse off than many other countries that have shutdown. This is so untrue. Norway and Denmark had initially many more cases then Sweden but since their curves flattened. As of yesterday Norway - 26 deaths / milion Sweden - 102 deaths / million Denmark - 52 deaths / milion

nickthemagicman 7y ago
U.K. 166 deaths per million with a full lockdown in place
- nunoonun 7y ago
  "with a very late full lockdown in place". It actually proves that locking down early works and things get out of control extremely fast
  - thu2111 7y ago
    It doesn't prove anything about lockdowns given that the UK has plenty of healthcare capacity and in fact like elsewhere its hospitals are nearly empty right now. If fewer British people survive in their hospitals all it may show is those hospitals aren't very good, but it wouldn't be due to being "too late" as that would require deaths due to overload. If you look at the huge drop in cardiac ER admissions it's clear that people are dying because they are having heart attacks and not going to hospital when they should. There's actually a severe problem with hospital underload right now. Governments, supposedly following the science, have built emergency field hospitals and shut down other medical work to protect hospitals that are now nearly empty. This was not predicted by anyone pushing lockdowns and is a grotesque mis-prediction with deadly consequences. Nobody will talk about it at the moment, but I suspect when all this is studied in years to come the UK will be seen to have done worse partly because its population over-reacted to government extortions to "stay home, save the NHS". People are going to die just because they aren't going to hospitals they've been told they need to "protect" as some sort of moral mission. The NHS is often called a national religion, which isn't quite right - it's a religion to some and unfortunately those people aggressively attack anyone who points out what an institutional failure it is. It's easily believable that people will be avoiding hospitals in the UK in greater numbers than elsewhere right now. We need to watch out for a lot of retroactive nonsense in the coming months. People will claim epidemiologists predicted all this (they didn't), that the lack of lockdown explains differing death rates (already disproven completely by the case of Sweden). Cold logic is all that will clear the fog.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- dx034 7y ago
  UK was the country that first wanted to isolate the elderly and get young people infected and immune. The current case count is a reflection of that rather than the lockdown which came afterwards.
  - nickthemagicman 7y ago
    False. Sweden has had no lockdown at all and has had less fatalities per capita.
- gruturo 7y ago
  You may want to pick a less terrible example. UK went into lockdown very late, tried to insist on some bullshit herd immunity theory, very nearly lost even its PM, and is now paying the price in blood.
  - nickthemagicman 7y ago
    That's extremely overdramatic.
jeltz 7y ago
But there is also "Beglium - 359 deaths / million" which had early lockdowns. They started their lockdown one day before Denmark. By cherry picking countries one can chose a story to tell. I think it is too early to say if Sweden's strategy was stupid or not.
- chewz 7y ago
  I guess Denmark and Norway as both Nordic countries with similiar wealth and culture are as similar to Sweden as possible.
  - PunchTornado 7y ago
    one can argue that Sweden has a larger immigrant population than those countries. Majority of deaths in Sweden are from immigrant populations. They are blamed for not following the social distancing rules that most Swedens follow day to day. Also they are poorer, live in larger families in small houses etc. and it is harder for them to follow the rules.
    - CydeWeys 7y ago
      One can also argue that the virus doesn't care about your ethnicity, and just because it's hit some particular community hard first doesn't mean it's not going to spread through the rest of your society too absent serious measures being taken. In the US, focusing on the "others" who had the virus, in our case the Chinese, while not taking effective measures early enough to stop the disease, was a huge mistake. It was a distraction, an excuse for racism and not doing more. This is not just a disease of poor immigrants. It's coming for everyone.
      - malandrew 7y ago
        https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/07/us/coronavirus-race.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/07/us/coronavirus-race.html
        7y ago

by chewz 7y ago

nickthemagicman 7y ago

U.K. 166 deaths per million with a full lockdown in place

nunoonun 7y ago
"with a very late full lockdown in place". It actually proves that locking down early works and things get out of control extremely fast
- thu2111 7y ago
  It doesn't prove anything about lockdowns given that the UK has plenty of healthcare capacity and in fact like elsewhere its hospitals are nearly empty right now. If fewer British people survive in their hospitals all it may show is those hospitals aren't very good, but it wouldn't be due to being "too late" as that would require deaths due to overload. If you look at the huge drop in cardiac ER admissions it's clear that people are dying because they are having heart attacks and not going to hospital when they should. There's actually a severe problem with hospital underload right now. Governments, supposedly following the science, have built emergency field hospitals and shut down other medical work to protect hospitals that are now nearly empty. This was not predicted by anyone pushing lockdowns and is a grotesque mis-prediction with deadly consequences. Nobody will talk about it at the moment, but I suspect when all this is studied in years to come the UK will be seen to have done worse partly because its population over-reacted to government extortions to "stay home, save the NHS". People are going to die just because they aren't going to hospitals they've been told they need to "protect" as some sort of moral mission. The NHS is often called a national religion, which isn't quite right - it's a religion to some and unfortunately those people aggressively attack anyone who points out what an institutional failure it is. It's easily believable that people will be avoiding hospitals in the UK in greater numbers than elsewhere right now. We need to watch out for a lot of retroactive nonsense in the coming months. People will claim epidemiologists predicted all this (they didn't), that the lack of lockdown explains differing death rates (already disproven completely by the case of Sweden). Cold logic is all that will clear the fog.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
dx034 7y ago
UK was the country that first wanted to isolate the elderly and get young people infected and immune. The current case count is a reflection of that rather than the lockdown which came afterwards.
- nickthemagicman 7y ago
  False. Sweden has had no lockdown at all and has had less fatalities per capita.
gruturo 7y ago
You may want to pick a less terrible example. UK went into lockdown very late, tried to insist on some bullshit herd immunity theory, very nearly lost even its PM, and is now paying the price in blood.
- nickthemagicman 7y ago
  That's extremely overdramatic.

jeltz 7y ago

But there is also "Beglium - 359 deaths / million" which had early lockdowns. They started their lockdown one day before Denmark. By cherry picking countries one can chose a story to tell. I think it is too early to say if Sweden's strategy was stupid or not.

chewz 7y ago
I guess Denmark and Norway as both Nordic countries with similiar wealth and culture are as similar to Sweden as possible.
- PunchTornado 7y ago
  one can argue that Sweden has a larger immigrant population than those countries. Majority of deaths in Sweden are from immigrant populations. They are blamed for not following the social distancing rules that most Swedens follow day to day. Also they are poorer, live in larger families in small houses etc. and it is harder for them to follow the rules.
  - CydeWeys 7y ago
    One can also argue that the virus doesn't care about your ethnicity, and just because it's hit some particular community hard first doesn't mean it's not going to spread through the rest of your society too absent serious measures being taken. In the US, focusing on the "others" who had the virus, in our case the Chinese, while not taking effective measures early enough to stop the disease, was a huge mistake. It was a distraction, an excuse for racism and not doing more. This is not just a disease of poor immigrants. It's coming for everyone.
    - malandrew 7y ago
      https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/07/us/coronavirus-race.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/07/us/coronavirus-race.html
      - 7y ago