5 ms·

What historical examples of negative consequences of government control of land and renting it out to the highest bidder are you thinking of? Georgism has a so

by ikeboy 7y ago

What historical examples of negative consequences of government control of land and renting it out to the highest bidder are you thinking of? Georgism has a solid theoretical foundation.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
WalterBright 7y ago
Renters have little incentive to take care of it, and the government tends to not take care of it, either. The result is blight. It often happens with "the projects" where the government builds housing and rents it out.
- KozmoNau7 7y ago
  That is caused by putting disenfranchised, poor and troubled people there, and no longer giving a damn about them once they have a simple roof over their heads. Renters can have exactly as much community spirit and take as much pride in their dwellings as anyone, but it requires that they're treated with a modicum of respect, which unfortunately is exceedingly rare in lardlordism.
  - WalterBright 7y ago
    > Renters can have exactly as much community spirit and take as much pride in their dwellings as anyone No, they don't. Talk to hotel staff sometime about how their guests treat the rooms, for just one example. Or how people rent cars and go race them. Or how sensible people avoid buying former car rentals. Anybody in any form of rental business knows it isn't true.
    - KozmoNau7 7y ago
      You're conflating short-term renting with long-term renting. There is a vast difference between a hotel guest or AirBnB renter, who will only be staying a few days or a couple of weeks at most, and someone who rents an apartment/house for years and is part of the local community. There are also cultural and personal differences, because neither I nor any of my friends would ever trash a short-term rental, whether it was an apartment, hotel room or a car. However I also know people who don't even give a damn about their own things, they trash everything they touch, it is absolutely not some universal trait in renters. Overall, the less egotistical a culture is, the better short-term renting, tool sharing and similar programs work.
      - WalterBright 7y ago
        If you're renting, ask your landlord. > neither I nor any of my friends would ever trash a short-term rental, whether it was an apartment, hotel room or a car. It's not just "trashing". It's in general being harder on things. I'll give another example, this from the military, as told to me by my father, career Air Force. The military issued combat boots to soldiers, and when they'd wear out, the soldier would present the worn out boot at the supply office, and get a new pair. They had a rate of boot exchanges that seemed high. As an experiment, the military instead provided the soldiers with a uniform allowance. What they didn't spend they could keep. The boot consumption dropped by a factor of three. This was not soldiers "trashing" the boots. It was simply not caring about them.
        KozmoNau7 7y ago
        > It's not just "trashing". It's in general being harder on things. I will treat a rented or borrowed item better than one I own myself, as would my friends, simply because it is the right thing to do and because we would all hate to be handed a mistreated item the next time we rent something. What you're describing is a cultural issue of people lacking respect for other people, and it is by no means a universal trait in humanity. However a lack of respect usually correlates with immaturity, which is shown in your example from the military. Young men tend to lack the requisite level of maturity. When people mature, they usually start respecting other people and start caring about making things last for as long as possible. If the lack of respect persists well into adulthood, you're dealing with a major societal problem.
        WalterBright 7y ago
        It's great that you behave that way. > it is by no means a universal trait in humanity I didn't say it was universal. But it happens plenty enough that you cannot dismiss it when, for example, making public policy.
        KozmoNau7 7y ago
        I will refer back to my original post: >" That is caused by putting disenfranchised, poor and troubled people there, and no longer giving a damn about them once they have a simple roof over their heads." It is not an inherent nor universal trait of humanity. It happens because people often feel uninvolved, disconnected, and self-concerned to a fault; they do not trust their neighbors, because they have been given no reason to do so. They have been propagandized for decades with the message that they must be self-sufficient, responsible adults, and the way you measure that is in wealth, and that in that regard they are, at best, in competition with their neighbor. One consequence of this is not giving a damn about anything you do not own yourself, which is a sick mindset, a symptom of a sick societal order. Most of the western world has adopted this neoliberal mindset, and it is making us increasingly more callous, the longer it goes on.
- ikeboy 7y ago
  You still haven't pointed to any actual examples. Georgism is specifically about land, not housing. The theory is that land value isn't much affected by investment of the landowner. Housing is, and that can be owned by individuals who then have a strong incentivize to take care of it.

by ikeboy 7y ago

What historical examples of negative consequences of government control of land and renting it out to the highest bidder are you thinking of? Georgism has a solid theoretical foundation.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

WalterBright 7y ago

Renters have little incentive to take care of it, and the government tends to not take care of it, either. The result is blight. It often happens with "the projects" where the government builds housing and rents it out.

KozmoNau7 7y ago
That is caused by putting disenfranchised, poor and troubled people there, and no longer giving a damn about them once they have a simple roof over their heads. Renters can have exactly as much community spirit and take as much pride in their dwellings as anyone, but it requires that they're treated with a modicum of respect, which unfortunately is exceedingly rare in lardlordism.
- WalterBright 7y ago
  > Renters can have exactly as much community spirit and take as much pride in their dwellings as anyone No, they don't. Talk to hotel staff sometime about how their guests treat the rooms, for just one example. Or how people rent cars and go race them. Or how sensible people avoid buying former car rentals. Anybody in any form of rental business knows it isn't true.
  - KozmoNau7 7y ago
    You're conflating short-term renting with long-term renting. There is a vast difference between a hotel guest or AirBnB renter, who will only be staying a few days or a couple of weeks at most, and someone who rents an apartment/house for years and is part of the local community. There are also cultural and personal differences, because neither I nor any of my friends would ever trash a short-term rental, whether it was an apartment, hotel room or a car. However I also know people who don't even give a damn about their own things, they trash everything they touch, it is absolutely not some universal trait in renters. Overall, the less egotistical a culture is, the better short-term renting, tool sharing and similar programs work.
    - WalterBright 7y ago
      If you're renting, ask your landlord. > neither I nor any of my friends would ever trash a short-term rental, whether it was an apartment, hotel room or a car. It's not just "trashing". It's in general being harder on things. I'll give another example, this from the military, as told to me by my father, career Air Force. The military issued combat boots to soldiers, and when they'd wear out, the soldier would present the worn out boot at the supply office, and get a new pair. They had a rate of boot exchanges that seemed high. As an experiment, the military instead provided the soldiers with a uniform allowance. What they didn't spend they could keep. The boot consumption dropped by a factor of three. This was not soldiers "trashing" the boots. It was simply not caring about them.
      - KozmoNau7 7y ago
        > It's not just "trashing". It's in general being harder on things. I will treat a rented or borrowed item better than one I own myself, as would my friends, simply because it is the right thing to do and because we would all hate to be handed a mistreated item the next time we rent something. What you're describing is a cultural issue of people lacking respect for other people, and it is by no means a universal trait in humanity. However a lack of respect usually correlates with immaturity, which is shown in your example from the military. Young men tend to lack the requisite level of maturity. When people mature, they usually start respecting other people and start caring about making things last for as long as possible. If the lack of respect persists well into adulthood, you're dealing with a major societal problem.
        WalterBright 7y ago
        It's great that you behave that way. > it is by no means a universal trait in humanity I didn't say it was universal. But it happens plenty enough that you cannot dismiss it when, for example, making public policy.
        KozmoNau7 7y ago
        I will refer back to my original post: >" That is caused by putting disenfranchised, poor and troubled people there, and no longer giving a damn about them once they have a simple roof over their heads." It is not an inherent nor universal trait of humanity. It happens because people often feel uninvolved, disconnected, and self-concerned to a fault; they do not trust their neighbors, because they have been given no reason to do so. They have been propagandized for decades with the message that they must be self-sufficient, responsible adults, and the way you measure that is in wealth, and that in that regard they are, at best, in competition with their neighbor. One consequence of this is not giving a damn about anything you do not own yourself, which is a sick mindset, a symptom of a sick societal order. Most of the western world has adopted this neoliberal mindset, and it is making us increasingly more callous, the longer it goes on.
ikeboy 7y ago
You still haven't pointed to any actual examples. Georgism is specifically about land, not housing. The theory is that land value isn't much affected by investment of the landowner. Housing is, and that can be owned by individuals who then have a strong incentivize to take care of it.