5 ms·

> I’m definitely in the camp that “the cure cannot be worse than the disease” itself. It seems to be forbidden to debate this unfortunately.

jwilber 7y ago
There are responses above now. Looking forward to your debates.
eropple 7y ago
It’s not “forbidden” for y’all freethinkers or autodidacts or whatever the term today is to debate such things and to make the claim is dishonest. You’d have to find somebody to debate with, however, and most people are not particularly interested in “hang your Grandma for my stocks”. That is not a restriction of debate, it’s the social dumpstering of people beyond either statistics or empathy and that’s a feature and not a bug.
- volak 7y ago
  Framing the debate as "your grandma or your 401k" is precisely the gas lighting that prevents rational discussion on this topic
  - eropple 7y ago
    I submit that you don't know what gaslighting is. Further, I submit that you're attempting to coopt the language of marginalized groups to buttress a weak and selfish viewpoint. I shall not buy what you are selling.
    - nate_meurer 7y ago
      Right, it's not exactly gaslighting. Rather, it's a fucking strawman made in bad faith. The stakes are not "my stocks". The stakes are civil society, which as you may or may not know, can't exist for long without a functioning economy.
      - eropple 7y ago
        You're right, the stakes are civil society. Which you no longer get to claim you have when you sacrifice the weak and the sick to Moloch for pseudofictional accounts in a computer somewhere. We must take care of each other, it is our basic obligation as citizens of a civil society, and this is the only way we can do that right now.
        nate_meurer 7y ago
        If that's what you mean then fucking say it. Tarring folks who express concern over the economy with a bullshit strawman just makes you the asshole.
- kinkrtyavimoodh 7y ago
  You seem to believe that 'stocks' are some abstract entity and are relevant only to the lives of people without grandmas to hang. We don't live in a vacuum. Economic activity is not some cute thing people do in their free time. Recession also costs lives, including those of some grandmas.
  - majormajor 7y ago
    Yes, and one of the interesting questions would be *why is our government so much more effective at propping up "the stocks" while everyone loses their job? There's miles of room for argument over the economic policy response. But instead what we get is "the economic effects aren't worth it" where none of the assumptions are quantified.
    - nate_meurer 7y ago
      Our economy has fallen off a cliff, and we have no view of bottom yet. What exactly do you expect anyone to be able to quantify at this early stage?
- nightstaywalki 7y ago
  > “hang your Grandma for my stocks” But people feed their children using the value of their stocks. Do you think it's possible that a seriously damaged economy will lead to more suffering and deaths than are being prevented by the lockdown?
  - eropple 7y ago
    In no realistic permutation. Thanks for asking!
    - nightstaywalki 7y ago
      Hmm I'm not as sure, and I'm not sure why other people are so sure. People seem to generally respond 'of course not' and get offended that I've suggested it. I'm not really sure why.
      - eropple 7y ago
        On the off chance that you're saying this in good faith? Generally speaking it's because Just Asking Questions comes with motives that suck. Maybe you're the one whose don't and you are tragically caught up amidst the sewage flow of "screw 'em" types, but playing the percentages on bad-faith argumentation is pretty safe. Trolls and other turds make a point of wasting people's reserves of good faith as a tactic to dominate discourse--there's no reason to let them do so. Flat dismissal is the milder form of "block and move on".
        nightstaywalki 7y ago
        I'm just as confused. It's prompted another strong reaction in you but I genuinely don't get why. I don't know what motives you think I have, or why I might be arguing in bad faith, or why you're talking about trolls and turds (?). Why is it so wrong to ask 'are we sure we're going the right way - this way seems to have a lot of problems - are we sure the other way has more?' Some people literally kill themselves when they become unemployed. We have millions of new unemployed people. You say it's not forbidden but you're comparing me to a turd for doing it. Why does it cause people to abuse me?
majormajor 7y ago
I see it brought up quite a bit on HN, and yet... very rarely with much rigor. It is often of this sort of "I feel that the economic costs will be worse than the human life costs" without any hard backing to explain that. Challenging the opinions of the people getting airtime is fine, but only if you've got the material to back you up. Otherwise it sounds just like wishful thinking.
- volak 7y ago
  Some quick research https://www.nber.org/papers/w23192?fbclid=IwAR15UAkVuakNeQrlQIfiwj9mPhH1MdseNsXpKENR2tu8LYX-dA1KBlppnPg https://www.nber.org/papers/w23192?fbclid=IwAR15UAkVuakNeQrl... 100,000 more drug overdoeses per 1% unemployment Also https://www.webmd.com/depression/news/20110414/suicides-go-up-when-economy-goes-down#1 https://www.webmd.com/depression/news/20110414/suicides-go-u...
- randallsquared 7y ago
  > Otherwise it sounds just like wishful thinking. ...what? Who would wish for this? Maybe you're pattern-matching to something for which you have a political response, without actually listening to the worry that is being expressed.

jwilber 7y ago

There are responses above now. Looking forward to your debates.

eropple 7y ago

It’s not “forbidden” for y’all freethinkers or autodidacts or whatever the term today is to debate such things and to make the claim is dishonest. You’d have to find somebody to debate with, however, and most people are not particularly interested in “hang your Grandma for my stocks”. That is not a restriction of debate, it’s the social dumpstering of people beyond either statistics or empathy and that’s a feature and not a bug.

volak 7y ago
Framing the debate as "your grandma or your 401k" is precisely the gas lighting that prevents rational discussion on this topic
- eropple 7y ago
  I submit that you don't know what gaslighting is. Further, I submit that you're attempting to coopt the language of marginalized groups to buttress a weak and selfish viewpoint. I shall not buy what you are selling.
  - nate_meurer 7y ago
    Right, it's not exactly gaslighting. Rather, it's a fucking strawman made in bad faith. The stakes are not "my stocks". The stakes are civil society, which as you may or may not know, can't exist for long without a functioning economy.
    - eropple 7y ago
      You're right, the stakes are civil society. Which you no longer get to claim you have when you sacrifice the weak and the sick to Moloch for pseudofictional accounts in a computer somewhere. We must take care of each other, it is our basic obligation as citizens of a civil society, and this is the only way we can do that right now.
      - nate_meurer 7y ago
        If that's what you mean then fucking say it. Tarring folks who express concern over the economy with a bullshit strawman just makes you the asshole.
kinkrtyavimoodh 7y ago
You seem to believe that 'stocks' are some abstract entity and are relevant only to the lives of people without grandmas to hang. We don't live in a vacuum. Economic activity is not some cute thing people do in their free time. Recession also costs lives, including those of some grandmas.
- majormajor 7y ago
  Yes, and one of the interesting questions would be *why is our government so much more effective at propping up "the stocks" while everyone loses their job? There's miles of room for argument over the economic policy response. But instead what we get is "the economic effects aren't worth it" where none of the assumptions are quantified.
  - nate_meurer 7y ago
    Our economy has fallen off a cliff, and we have no view of bottom yet. What exactly do you expect anyone to be able to quantify at this early stage?
nightstaywalki 7y ago
> “hang your Grandma for my stocks” But people feed their children using the value of their stocks. Do you think it's possible that a seriously damaged economy will lead to more suffering and deaths than are being prevented by the lockdown?
- eropple 7y ago
  In no realistic permutation. Thanks for asking!
  - nightstaywalki 7y ago
    Hmm I'm not as sure, and I'm not sure why other people are so sure. People seem to generally respond 'of course not' and get offended that I've suggested it. I'm not really sure why.
    - eropple 7y ago
      On the off chance that you're saying this in good faith? Generally speaking it's because Just Asking Questions comes with motives that suck. Maybe you're the one whose don't and you are tragically caught up amidst the sewage flow of "screw 'em" types, but playing the percentages on bad-faith argumentation is pretty safe. Trolls and other turds make a point of wasting people's reserves of good faith as a tactic to dominate discourse--there's no reason to let them do so. Flat dismissal is the milder form of "block and move on".
      - nightstaywalki 7y ago
        I'm just as confused. It's prompted another strong reaction in you but I genuinely don't get why. I don't know what motives you think I have, or why I might be arguing in bad faith, or why you're talking about trolls and turds (?). Why is it so wrong to ask 'are we sure we're going the right way - this way seems to have a lot of problems - are we sure the other way has more?' Some people literally kill themselves when they become unemployed. We have millions of new unemployed people. You say it's not forbidden but you're comparing me to a turd for doing it. Why does it cause people to abuse me?

majormajor 7y ago

I see it brought up quite a bit on HN, and yet... very rarely with much rigor. It is often of this sort of "I feel that the economic costs will be worse than the human life costs" without any hard backing to explain that. Challenging the opinions of the people getting airtime is fine, but only if you've got the material to back you up. Otherwise it sounds just like wishful thinking.

volak 7y ago
Some quick research https://www.nber.org/papers/w23192?fbclid=IwAR15UAkVuakNeQrlQIfiwj9mPhH1MdseNsXpKENR2tu8LYX-dA1KBlppnPg https://www.nber.org/papers/w23192?fbclid=IwAR15UAkVuakNeQrl... 100,000 more drug overdoeses per 1% unemployment Also https://www.webmd.com/depression/news/20110414/suicides-go-up-when-economy-goes-down#1 https://www.webmd.com/depression/news/20110414/suicides-go-u...
randallsquared 7y ago
> Otherwise it sounds just like wishful thinking. ...what? Who would wish for this? Maybe you're pattern-matching to something for which you have a political response, without actually listening to the worry that is being expressed.