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Not a doctor. A major issue with using this type of CPAP machine on a Covid-19 positive person is the high amount of aerosolized virus particles it exhausts.
by tcbawo 7y ago
Not a doctor. A major issue with using this type of CPAP machine on a Covid-19 positive person is the high amount of aerosolized virus particles it exhausts. Anyone using this should be extremely careful and know what they're doing. That being said, doctors in many countries are using positive air pressure machines with an air-tight helmet/bag with filtered exhaust.
- Tepix 7y agoThat's what it says right there on the page already: "Additional equipment like viral filters are also required."
- minikites 7y agoSo it's okay to show someone how to make something extremely hazardous as long as you include a flimsy nonspecific disclaimer?
- shijie 7y agoI believe so, yes. I like to think people can make reasonable decisions with information they are provided
- minikites 7y agoIf people can make reasonable decisions all of the time, why do we even have laws? Reasonable people wouldn't violate them anyway.
- folkhack 7y agoThis is pandering to an extreme situation in order to make a case... I think anyone on HN will acknowledge that people are on a scale from "not reasonable" to "very reasonable". You're pushing the comment you're responding to over to a binary point of view. I don't believe in good faith that shijie meant "all of the time" when they said "I like to think people can make reasonable decisions with information they are provided". To push their statement to "all of the time" while bringing the ethics of law into this conversation seems disingenuous to the safety/disclaimer concerns you originally called into question. Personally, I found the disclaimer on the airbreak.dev site to be very clear and appreciated it was on the front-page directly following the product summary. It is clear to me that this is an "in-development" project that is not ready for real-world deployment yet - they're being quite clear/transparent with these facts.
- patmorgan23 7y agoActually yes(not that this is particularly dangerous) . It happens litteraly all the time. Ever seen all those "don't try this at home" disclaimers? Also someone published a book called "the anarchist cook book" on how to make rudimentary explosives and manufacture illicit substances such as LSD. You can find a pdf of it with a quick google search.
- derrick_jensen 7y agoBoth of those have fairly obvious consequences. I can definitely see people using this and not recognizing it can put other people in harms way.
- tomhoward 7y agoThis kind of concern-trolling on threads like this gets really tiresome. Anyone in such a role where they will be fitting ventilators to people (i.e., highly educated, experienced and employed in a critical care role) will understand that this is outside of standard practice and that extra caution will need to be taken and considerations made for the different functionality and behaviour of the machine. Can't we just appreciate the spirit of inventiveness in a crisis, without having to spoil it by fretting about issues that any grown adult working with this stuff will be fully capable of considering?
- minikites 7y agoThis post is a perfect distillation of why there should be more history and other humanities subjects in traditionally STEM educations. >Can't we just appreciate the spirit of inventiveness in a crisis, without having to spoil it by fretting about issues that any grown adult working with this stuff will be fully capable of considering? Can't we just appreciate the inventiveness of using radium to light up watch dials? Or the inventiveness of the first friction matches? Someone who is educated or trained doesn't necessarily make a dangerous invention a net-positive.
- tomhoward 7y ago
- the_fury 7y agoAbsolutely, yes.
- cibomahto 7y agoMt. Sinai developed a procedure for using these safely in a clinical setting, by using an alternate patient circuit with viral filters to capture the aerosolized particles: https://health.mountsinai.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/14/2020/04/NIV-to-Ventilator-Modification-Protocol-v1.02-for-posting.pdf https://health.mountsinai.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/14/20...
- fortran77 7y agoWhat's scary is that CPAP machines are allowed on airplanes. If they really aerosolize virus particles, maybe they shouldn't be.
- dpeck 7y agoAt least on Delta flights they’re not allowed to be used, I’m not sure if the same policy exists on other airlines. Edit: I was wrong, see below
- reaperducer 7y agoI'd be very surprised to see any airline restrict the use of a medical device onboard. The manual that came with mine states that airlines are required to let you use it, and the manufacturer sells an airline-friendly battery pack. Do you have a link to Delta's policy on this?
- dpeck 7y agoMy mistake, I was wrong. They allow use, but it has to have its own power supply https://www.delta.com/us/en/accessible-travel-services/assistive-devices-medication https://www.delta.com/us/en/accessible-travel-services/assis...
- cameldrv 7y agoThis would seem to be because they don't want to be held to providing medical grade reliability of electricity to the seat.
- fortran77 7y agoI've sat next to people using them on Delta and United. Of course, I'm not without empathy for people who depend on them. But if a person has a viral infection that can be spread through droplets, this can be a very dangerous situation. If I'm ever in this situation again, I'll ask to be reseated. If they can't do that, I'm not sure I'd want to fly.
- SkyPuncher 7y agoIf you're using this where non-COVID patients could be exposed (e.g. at home) this is a very important consideration. In a hospital setting (aka an emergency), it's less of an issue. The situation that would warrant this would likely also warrant full PPE just to enter a unit or building.
- DanBC 7y ago> it's less of an issue. The situation that would warrant this would likely also warrant full PPE just to enter a unit or building. Isn't it still important not to spray covid everywhere? See for example this post: https://emcrit.org/emcrit/covid-airway-management/ https://emcrit.org/emcrit/covid-airway-management/ > Critical Note: If you use the vent for preox, you MUST disconnect the vent circuit proximal to the viral filter before removing the mask. Otherwise, COVID will be sprayed all around the room!!!!! See Triple C below. {EDIT: genuinely don't know why this got downvotes.}