5 ms·

A better example would probably be "ij" in Dutch. That's definitely considered a single letter, as words starting with ij in Dutch are capitalised IJ. Though

by Svip 7y ago

A better example would probably be "ij" in Dutch. That's definitely considered a single letter, as words starting with ij in Dutch are capitalised IJ. Though there are glyphs for Ĳ /ĳ already in unicode.

bartwe 7y ago
Nobody has that as a letter on the keyboard here though, so it doesn't matter. Normally typed as a digraph. Would be nice if we just switched over to using y at this point. Makes me wonder, is the use of diacritics reducing since ascii keyboards became the norm ?
- kosievdmerwe 7y ago
  Afrikaans did this. We use "y" instead of "ij".
mercer 7y ago
"Ij" is also one sounds represented bij two letters, and I think capitalizing just the 'I' is pretty standard. As a Dutch person myself, I didn't even know that there's a glyph for it! We also have "ei", which sounds the same and was invented to annoy people learning Dutch. Then there's "oe", "eu", "ui". And just to fuck even more with people learning the language, we have "au" and "ou" which also sound the same. Oh, and "ch" and "g". Hans Brinker, the inventor of the Dutch language, famously would toss a florijn to decide between using ei/ij and au/ou, as he was not fond of foreigners. He's mostly known for saving our country though when he plugged a hole in a dyke with his finger (yes, I know what you're thinking, and no, we do not appreciate your dirty minds making light of this heroic act).
- unwind 7y ago
  Spelling it "dike" helps keep people's minds on the right thing. :)
  - mercer 7y ago
    Well shit. Guess I'll have to clean out my mind with some soap...
  - samatman 7y ago
    If you spell it "dijk" it's even less racy, because it's no longer a four-letter word.
- akie 7y ago
  As a Dutch person myself, capitalizing just the I and not the J hurts my eyes. Ijsselmeer or IJsselmeer?
  - mercer 7y ago
    Interesting. I never really gave it much thought, but Ij actually bothers me so much that I usually try to avoid using it at the beginning of a sentence, and I cringe when I need to capitalize because it's a place (like Ijsselmeer). Just did some googling. Turns out that unlike the other combinations, capitalizing both letters is mandatory for 'IJ'. TIL...
- alexis_fr 7y ago
  Same as OE/Œ in French, then.
masklinn 7y ago
I don't know that that's correct. That there exists a ligature character doesn't mean the ligature is a character of the language. It could, mind, I don't know dutch. But in french "œ" (which has a ligatured character as you can see) is canonically equivalent to "oe". It is not a separate letter of the alphabet even though: * many words should not be written with the ligatured form * many words should be written with the ligatured form * it has a different pronunciation than the base form
roelschroeven 7y ago
"ij" is sometimes considered a single letter, but certainly not always. Quoting Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IJ_(digraph) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IJ_(digraph)): "Ĳ (lowercase ĳ; Dutch pronunciation: [ɛi]) is a digraph of the letters i and j. Occurring in the Dutch language, it is sometimes considered a ligature, or a letter in itself. In most fonts that have a separate character for ij, the two composing parts are not connected but are separate glyphs, which are sometimes slightly kerned." (and equivalent in the Dutch Wikipedia article)

by Svip 7y ago

bartwe 7y ago

Nobody has that as a letter on the keyboard here though, so it doesn't matter. Normally typed as a digraph. Would be nice if we just switched over to using y at this point. Makes me wonder, is the use of diacritics reducing since ascii keyboards became the norm ?

kosievdmerwe 7y ago
Afrikaans did this. We use "y" instead of "ij".

mercer 7y ago

"Ij" is also one sounds represented bij two letters, and I think capitalizing just the 'I' is pretty standard. As a Dutch person myself, I didn't even know that there's a glyph for it! We also have "ei", which sounds the same and was invented to annoy people learning Dutch. Then there's "oe", "eu", "ui". And just to fuck even more with people learning the language, we have "au" and "ou" which also sound the same. Oh, and "ch" and "g". Hans Brinker, the inventor of the Dutch language, famously would toss a florijn to decide between using ei/ij and au/ou, as he was not fond of foreigners. He's mostly known for saving our country though when he plugged a hole in a dyke with his finger (yes, I know what you're thinking, and no, we do not appreciate your dirty minds making light of this heroic act).

unwind 7y ago
Spelling it "dike" helps keep people's minds on the right thing. :)
- mercer 7y ago
  Well shit. Guess I'll have to clean out my mind with some soap...
- samatman 7y ago
  If you spell it "dijk" it's even less racy, because it's no longer a four-letter word.
akie 7y ago
As a Dutch person myself, capitalizing just the I and not the J hurts my eyes. Ijsselmeer or IJsselmeer?
- mercer 7y ago
  Interesting. I never really gave it much thought, but Ij actually bothers me so much that I usually try to avoid using it at the beginning of a sentence, and I cringe when I need to capitalize because it's a place (like Ijsselmeer). Just did some googling. Turns out that unlike the other combinations, capitalizing both letters is mandatory for 'IJ'. TIL...
alexis_fr 7y ago
Same as OE/Œ in French, then.

masklinn 7y ago

I don't know that that's correct. That there exists a ligature character doesn't mean the ligature is a character of the language. It could, mind, I don't know dutch. But in french "œ" (which has a ligatured character as you can see) is canonically equivalent to "oe". It is not a separate letter of the alphabet even though: * many words should not be written with the ligatured form * many words should be written with the ligatured form * it has a different pronunciation than the base form

roelschroeven 7y ago

"ij" is sometimes considered a single letter, but certainly not always. Quoting Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IJ_(digraph) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IJ_(digraph)): "Ĳ (lowercase ĳ; Dutch pronunciation: [ɛi]) is a digraph of the letters i and j. Occurring in the Dutch language, it is sometimes considered a ligature, or a letter in itself. In most fonts that have a separate character for ij, the two composing parts are not connected but are separate glyphs, which are sometimes slightly kerned." (and equivalent in the Dutch Wikipedia article)