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I've personally found that saying critical things about the Chinese Communist Party on this website results in people quickly conflating said attacks on a gover

by JPKab 7y ago

I've personally found that saying critical things about the Chinese Communist Party on this website results in people quickly conflating said attacks on a government with a non-existent ethnic group (ignoring the fact that China has multiple ethnic groups instead of just the dominant Han majority) and suddenly you are flagged for being a bigot. It's pretty obnoxious behavior that is very dominant in Silicon Valley. I view it as primarily driven at the bottom by people who see all bigotry through a purely Western lens (and are therefore blind to the fact that "white" privilege is actually "dominant ethnic group" privilege and changes depending on where you are), don't know anything about China other than it being an Asian country, and equate criticizing the country as being Western imperialism. From the top, it's money money money, because hey, who cares about Uighurs anyway, I just got a billion from some dude whose dad fought for Mao and is now a high-ranking member of the Chinese Communist Party. Now I'll go talk about how much I value diversity while my company is funded by a country which imprisons people because they are Muslim, or criticize the government, or, you know, tell the truth.

twomoretime 7y ago
>'ve personally found that saying critical things about the Chinese Communist Party on this website results in people quickly conflating said attacks on a government with a non-existent ethnic group Been banned for it under the guise of flamebait. Didn't say anything inflammatory. What's worse is that we know the CCP employs a "troll army" for astroturfing all over the web, but on every major platform a pro China post would simply never be silenced - so the CCP in short is playing our own institutions against us because we increasingly cannot separate criticism from intolerance.
- lobotryas 7y ago
  The CCP buys the people it can by offering or denying them access to a huge market. See how Bloomberg LP wanted to keep selling terminal licenses in China. The CCP silences people it can by labeling them as racists for speaking out against its government apparatus. It uses misguided westerners and, I’m sure, it’s own agitprop machine for this purpose. Finally the CCP kills people within its borders that can neither be bought nor silenced with shame. Everyone from political dissidents to the doctor who first publicly raised the alarm bell on Corona (he was forced to confess to crimes of inciting panic) to the Uighur minority. The world does not oppose the CCP because it’s either greedy, scared for their reputation, uncaring or dead.
lobotryas 7y ago
Attempts to criticize China are just like attempts to criticize Israel. No matter how precise you are with your language (ex: people have issue with the government apparatus of CCP and not the Chinese people) you get called a bigot/racist. Same way you get called an anti-semite if you speak out specifically against the actions of the government in Tel Aviv and not the Jewish people. The really interesting question is whom does such deflection benefit? Are there really a lot of racists pretending to care about a Muslim minority to criticize China and thus indulge in their disgusting views? Occam’s razor tells us that the answer is likely: “no”.
- Hupriene 7y ago
  Based on my examination of my own attitudes about China, I'd say unease/fear about the future actions of the Chinese government may fuel some of my desire to criticize it for issues I may otherwise be indifferent to. While this fear is not based on some underlying dread of the Han people, it is, perhaps, motivated by nationalist instincts that many might disparage.
  - seneca 7y ago
    Self-preservation, especially in the face of a group diametrically opposed to your culture's values, isn't something to be ashamed of. Nationalism is not evil when it is defined inclusively, and not based on immutable characteristics. I would go further and say that while we shouldn't be ashamed of nationalism, we should draw our boundary wider. We should say that we are proud of, and willing to support, the values we uphold and all people that uphold them, regardless of what country they happen to live in. The people of Hong Kong, for instance, are in serious jeopardy. Simply acquiescing to the influence of the Chinese government allows them to steamroll ever more people, and silence ever more voices in favor of the values countless people have fought and died for. "When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle" - Edmund Burke
  - Retric 7y ago
    My only long term fear with China is what happens if it collapses. It might last another 100+ years, but dictatorship + immense corruption is not a recipe for stability. China’s internal politics has changed a lot since 1976 and it’s still evolving rapidly.
BurningFrog 7y ago
A paranoid, but still quite possibly true, reading of that is that Chinese government "influencers" are part of that knee jerk reaction.
nitrogen 7y ago
Unfortunately this conflation may have even contributed indirectly to early spread of Coronavirus in SF. After the virus was spreading but before the US lockdowns, there was an article in one of the SF papers that accused people who were deciding not to eat out in Chinatown of being racist. So I think this conflation doesn't originate here on HN, and it is very difficult in general to discuss some political/governmental issues without triggering the conflation.
- AndrewUnmuted 7y ago
  Reminds me of this tweet [0] from the chair of the NYC health council committee. He wrote, "If you are staying away, you are missing out!" - called those who stayed away from Chinatown "racist" - then tested positive for COVID-19 a week later. [0] https://twitter.com/marklevinenyc/status/1226566648729133056?lang=en https://twitter.com/marklevinenyc/status/1226566648729133056...
  - detaro 7y ago
    Did he get infected in Chinatown? Were there good reasons to assume there would be more infected there? Recent reports suggest the majority of Corona imports into NYC came from Europe. Joining a large event full of people seems like the bigger issue. Around here, somehow people got scared about Taiwanese that haven't left Germany in years, but not their buddies that have been traveling a lot.
    - oh_sigh 7y ago
      > Joining a large event full of people seems like the bigger issue. Which is exactly what he did...in Chinatown.
- fzeroracer 7y ago
  It can be both. Neither situation excludes the other. Yes, people that refused to eat out in Chinatown were racist, because those people in Chinatown weren't the ones travelling. And the people that were refusing to eat out were still eating at other places which had travelers from all over; they weren't self-quarantining or trying to limit the spread of the virus. There's nuance to discussion where you can discuss a country without being racist, but at the same time I've seen people make obviously racist remarks while trying to pretend it's meant as a criticism of the country and not the people.
101404 7y ago
Uighurs are not persecuted "because they are Muslim". Hui, the second largest Chinese ethnic group after Han, are Muslim too. And they are not persecuted in any way. Uighurs are persecuted for the same reason the CCP tries to destroy the Tibetan ethnic group. Both these groups have strong independence movements that want to break away from China.
- yters 7y ago
  What would motivate them to desire independence from China?
  - 101404 7y ago
    That's a long story in both cases. For the Tibet case, a great book about the history of China-Tibet relations and the role the British played in it is "The Snow Lion and the Dragon", free to read online: https://publishing.cdlib.org/ucpressebooks/view?docId=ft2199n7f4&brand=ucpress https://publishing.cdlib.org/ucpressebooks/view?docId=ft2199... For the Xinjiang/Uighur case, I don't have a book recommendation. Uighurs are a Turkic people, so they don't really fit into China culturally. Xinjiang became Chinese about a millennium ago, but Uighurs continue to fight for an independent "East Turkistan". The movement's headquarter is in Munich, afaik.
    - yters 7y ago
      Do you think the state enforced atheism has any role?
eloff 7y ago
This is a disturbing trend I've seen on the left. Any criticism of a foreign country is construed as racism, or talk around immigration policies. That's obviously conflating issues, and it serves to shut down conversation rather than promote it. I hope people stop being so woke and wake up to the harm they're causing with that kind of extreme attitude.
- seneca 7y ago
  It's unfortunate, because I think those people are largely motivated by good intentions and don't realize the damage they do. With apology for the pejorative, this is the entire problem of the "useful idiot". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiot
- caseysoftware 7y ago
  * Except Russia You can insult, malign, and attack Russia all you want because "it's all Russia's fault!"
  - eloff 7y ago
    One can't look at Russia and say they're the good guys - but I have a lot of empathy for how they're treated by the West. I don't think it's always fair or justified by any means. Governments seem to find it useful to have a bad guy to point to, for various reasons, and Russia has served this purpose a lot. That's a shame, because we should be trying to get along peacefully rather.
- lostlogin 7y ago
  > This is a disturbing trend I've seen on the left. It’s not just the left, it’s both sides, and often there have been incidents of actual racism that can be accurately cited as prior examples of racism.
  - eloff 7y ago
    I haven't seen this on the right, I think the left is far more guilty of invoking racism falsely. The right tends to be guilty of actual racism sometimes.
yters 7y ago
Ironic since communism is itself a non chinese idea forced on the population through western indoctrination of Mao.
dang 7y ago
There are plenty of critical comments about China and the CCP which don't get downvoted or flagged. In fact, there are massive numbers of them. What gets downvoted and flagged are mostly meta deviations (into this sort of off-topic morass) and flamewars. Please don't post like that—it's against the site guidelines, for good reason. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22867280 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22867280.
- yters 7y ago
  Why is this comment thread off topic? The underlying reason for the Bloomberg story is the CCP silencing dissidence. Ironically, this comment thread about the silencing of CCP dissidence is itself silenced...
  - dang 7y ago
    Because the more generic it gets, the more tedious it gets, and because this is not a site for flamewar. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20generic%20discussion&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... Would you please stop posting this sort of grandiose, generic rhetoric? There are plenty of comments in this thread representing the same view you adhere to. The requirement is simply that people post thoughtfully and reflectively, rather than from a knee-jerk reflex or flamewar place. No, that's not because we're secret communist sympathizers. It's because on HN, we want threads not to be predictable. Readers come to HN to have their curiosity gratified. There is zero curiosity being gratified in angry, repetitive comments. This is an area where the interests of readers are not aligned with certain kinds of commenters—the kind that want to do ideological or political or nationalistic or religious battle on the internet. The site guidelines explicitly ask you not to do that, so please stop doing it.
    - yters 7y ago
      I understand your mod decision. I would also recommend looking into the OP's claim. I have to agree, the downvoting on this topic is much more than I am used to, and I get downvoted often! So, it appears there is more than the normal HN audience at work here.

by JPKab 7y ago

twomoretime 7y ago

>'ve personally found that saying critical things about the Chinese Communist Party on this website results in people quickly conflating said attacks on a government with a non-existent ethnic group Been banned for it under the guise of flamebait. Didn't say anything inflammatory. What's worse is that we know the CCP employs a "troll army" for astroturfing all over the web, but on every major platform a pro China post would simply never be silenced - so the CCP in short is playing our own institutions against us because we increasingly cannot separate criticism from intolerance.

lobotryas 7y ago
The CCP buys the people it can by offering or denying them access to a huge market. See how Bloomberg LP wanted to keep selling terminal licenses in China. The CCP silences people it can by labeling them as racists for speaking out against its government apparatus. It uses misguided westerners and, I’m sure, it’s own agitprop machine for this purpose. Finally the CCP kills people within its borders that can neither be bought nor silenced with shame. Everyone from political dissidents to the doctor who first publicly raised the alarm bell on Corona (he was forced to confess to crimes of inciting panic) to the Uighur minority. The world does not oppose the CCP because it’s either greedy, scared for their reputation, uncaring or dead.

lobotryas 7y ago

Attempts to criticize China are just like attempts to criticize Israel. No matter how precise you are with your language (ex: people have issue with the government apparatus of CCP and not the Chinese people) you get called a bigot/racist. Same way you get called an anti-semite if you speak out specifically against the actions of the government in Tel Aviv and not the Jewish people. The really interesting question is whom does such deflection benefit? Are there really a lot of racists pretending to care about a Muslim minority to criticize China and thus indulge in their disgusting views? Occam’s razor tells us that the answer is likely: “no”.

Hupriene 7y ago
Based on my examination of my own attitudes about China, I'd say unease/fear about the future actions of the Chinese government may fuel some of my desire to criticize it for issues I may otherwise be indifferent to. While this fear is not based on some underlying dread of the Han people, it is, perhaps, motivated by nationalist instincts that many might disparage.
- seneca 7y ago
  Self-preservation, especially in the face of a group diametrically opposed to your culture's values, isn't something to be ashamed of. Nationalism is not evil when it is defined inclusively, and not based on immutable characteristics. I would go further and say that while we shouldn't be ashamed of nationalism, we should draw our boundary wider. We should say that we are proud of, and willing to support, the values we uphold and all people that uphold them, regardless of what country they happen to live in. The people of Hong Kong, for instance, are in serious jeopardy. Simply acquiescing to the influence of the Chinese government allows them to steamroll ever more people, and silence ever more voices in favor of the values countless people have fought and died for. "When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle" - Edmund Burke
- Retric 7y ago
  My only long term fear with China is what happens if it collapses. It might last another 100+ years, but dictatorship + immense corruption is not a recipe for stability. China’s internal politics has changed a lot since 1976 and it’s still evolving rapidly.

BurningFrog 7y ago

A paranoid, but still quite possibly true, reading of that is that Chinese government "influencers" are part of that knee jerk reaction.

nitrogen 7y ago

Unfortunately this conflation may have even contributed indirectly to early spread of Coronavirus in SF. After the virus was spreading but before the US lockdowns, there was an article in one of the SF papers that accused people who were deciding not to eat out in Chinatown of being racist. So I think this conflation doesn't originate here on HN, and it is very difficult in general to discuss some political/governmental issues without triggering the conflation.

AndrewUnmuted 7y ago
Reminds me of this tweet [0] from the chair of the NYC health council committee. He wrote, "If you are staying away, you are missing out!" - called those who stayed away from Chinatown "racist" - then tested positive for COVID-19 a week later. [0] https://twitter.com/marklevinenyc/status/1226566648729133056?lang=en https://twitter.com/marklevinenyc/status/1226566648729133056...
- detaro 7y ago
  Did he get infected in Chinatown? Were there good reasons to assume there would be more infected there? Recent reports suggest the majority of Corona imports into NYC came from Europe. Joining a large event full of people seems like the bigger issue. Around here, somehow people got scared about Taiwanese that haven't left Germany in years, but not their buddies that have been traveling a lot.
  - oh_sigh 7y ago
    > Joining a large event full of people seems like the bigger issue. Which is exactly what he did...in Chinatown.
fzeroracer 7y ago
It can be both. Neither situation excludes the other. Yes, people that refused to eat out in Chinatown were racist, because those people in Chinatown weren't the ones travelling. And the people that were refusing to eat out were still eating at other places which had travelers from all over; they weren't self-quarantining or trying to limit the spread of the virus. There's nuance to discussion where you can discuss a country without being racist, but at the same time I've seen people make obviously racist remarks while trying to pretend it's meant as a criticism of the country and not the people.

101404 7y ago

Uighurs are not persecuted "because they are Muslim". Hui, the second largest Chinese ethnic group after Han, are Muslim too. And they are not persecuted in any way. Uighurs are persecuted for the same reason the CCP tries to destroy the Tibetan ethnic group. Both these groups have strong independence movements that want to break away from China.

yters 7y ago
What would motivate them to desire independence from China?
- 101404 7y ago
  That's a long story in both cases. For the Tibet case, a great book about the history of China-Tibet relations and the role the British played in it is "The Snow Lion and the Dragon", free to read online: https://publishing.cdlib.org/ucpressebooks/view?docId=ft2199n7f4&brand=ucpress https://publishing.cdlib.org/ucpressebooks/view?docId=ft2199... For the Xinjiang/Uighur case, I don't have a book recommendation. Uighurs are a Turkic people, so they don't really fit into China culturally. Xinjiang became Chinese about a millennium ago, but Uighurs continue to fight for an independent "East Turkistan". The movement's headquarter is in Munich, afaik.
  - yters 7y ago
    Do you think the state enforced atheism has any role?

eloff 7y ago

This is a disturbing trend I've seen on the left. Any criticism of a foreign country is construed as racism, or talk around immigration policies. That's obviously conflating issues, and it serves to shut down conversation rather than promote it. I hope people stop being so woke and wake up to the harm they're causing with that kind of extreme attitude.

seneca 7y ago
It's unfortunate, because I think those people are largely motivated by good intentions and don't realize the damage they do. With apology for the pejorative, this is the entire problem of the "useful idiot". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiot
caseysoftware 7y ago
* Except Russia You can insult, malign, and attack Russia all you want because "it's all Russia's fault!"
- eloff 7y ago
  One can't look at Russia and say they're the good guys - but I have a lot of empathy for how they're treated by the West. I don't think it's always fair or justified by any means. Governments seem to find it useful to have a bad guy to point to, for various reasons, and Russia has served this purpose a lot. That's a shame, because we should be trying to get along peacefully rather.
lostlogin 7y ago
> This is a disturbing trend I've seen on the left. It’s not just the left, it’s both sides, and often there have been incidents of actual racism that can be accurately cited as prior examples of racism.
- eloff 7y ago
  I haven't seen this on the right, I think the left is far more guilty of invoking racism falsely. The right tends to be guilty of actual racism sometimes.

yters 7y ago

Ironic since communism is itself a non chinese idea forced on the population through western indoctrination of Mao.

dang 7y ago

There are plenty of critical comments about China and the CCP which don't get downvoted or flagged. In fact, there are massive numbers of them. What gets downvoted and flagged are mostly meta deviations (into this sort of off-topic morass) and flamewars. Please don't post like that—it's against the site guidelines, for good reason. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22867280 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22867280.

yters 7y ago
Why is this comment thread off topic? The underlying reason for the Bloomberg story is the CCP silencing dissidence. Ironically, this comment thread about the silencing of CCP dissidence is itself silenced...
- dang 7y ago
  Because the more generic it gets, the more tedious it gets, and because this is not a site for flamewar. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20generic%20discussion&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... Would you please stop posting this sort of grandiose, generic rhetoric? There are plenty of comments in this thread representing the same view you adhere to. The requirement is simply that people post thoughtfully and reflectively, rather than from a knee-jerk reflex or flamewar place. No, that's not because we're secret communist sympathizers. It's because on HN, we want threads not to be predictable. Readers come to HN to have their curiosity gratified. There is zero curiosity being gratified in angry, repetitive comments. This is an area where the interests of readers are not aligned with certain kinds of commenters—the kind that want to do ideological or political or nationalistic or religious battle on the internet. The site guidelines explicitly ask you not to do that, so please stop doing it.
  - yters 7y ago
    I understand your mod decision. I would also recommend looking into the OP's claim. I have to agree, the downvoting on this topic is much more than I am used to, and I get downvoted often! So, it appears there is more than the normal HN audience at work here.