4 ms·

In Germany, a lawyer who called for a demonstration against the curfew first had her website taken down and has been put into psychiatry now (no English link, t

by altac 7y ago

In Germany, a lawyer who called for a demonstration against the curfew first had her website taken down and has been put into psychiatry now (no English link, the Welt is decently reputable): https://www.welt.de/vermischtes/article207246011/Heidelberg-Aufbegehren-gegen-Corona-Regeln-Anwaeltin-in-Psychiatrie-eingewiesen.html#Comments https://www.welt.de/vermischtes/article207246011/Heidelberg-...

mtmail 7y ago
Counter argument: The website takedown was temporary, in the psychiatry she has access to her mobile phone, police issued press releases. She reports in the psychiatry she's safe from 'dark forces' (https://www.t-online.de/nachrichten/deutschland/id_87699240/corona-polizei-bringt-coronoia-anwaeltin-beate-bahner-in-die-psychiatrie-.html https://www.t-online.de/nachrichten/deutschland/id_87699240/...). I wouldn't rule out that indeed she suffers persecution mania.
FabHK 7y ago
That's true, but it could easily be misunderstood as if policy debate and opposition to government in Germany is being curbed, and inconvenient voices being suppressed. That's not true. First, the measures in Germany are of course vigorously debated, and legal challenges are going ahead. Second, that particular lawyer has declared all measures against the COVID-19 unconstitutional and has unilaterally "revoked" them on her website. She then became paranoid when there was a car parked near her house for a long time, hid behind cars, and asked passers-by to call the police, declaring herself to be "Public Enemy #1".
- WildGreenLeave 7y ago
  Thank you for your reply, I was really confused that what happened to her was because of her asking for a demonstration. I asked a German friend to read up on it but I don't think that is necessary anymore. :)
  - banads 7y ago
    Do you think involuntary psychiatric committment and forced drugging is a reasonable reaction by the government to a protester/activist who is paranoid about surveillance in an age of ubiquitous surveillance?
    - coribuci 7y ago
      > Do you think involuntary psychiatric committment and forced drugging is a reasonable reaction by the government to a protester/activist who is paranoid about surveillance in an age of ubiquitous surveillance? Yes. She might have followers, you know.
      - banads 7y ago
        The USSR believed the same thing https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_abuse_of_psychiatry_in_the_Soviet_Union https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_abuse_of_psychiatr...
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
    - csense 7y ago
      Yes, it's a perfectly reasonable backdoor to discredit, shut up and punish troublemakers without involving courts, which have tend to have tedious rules about things like "evidence of wrongdoing," "habeas corpus" and peoples' "rights." After all, government knows best. This is not normal times; in this crisis, citizens' lives are at stake, so the government should be able to do anything, as long as they loudly claim their intentions are pure. Anyone who opposes the government isn't a criminal, because that would guarantee them some due process; they're an insane person who needs to be involuntarily treated. For their own good, of course. /s
      - Tainnor 7y ago
        Do you know the German legal system? The authorities may be able to put a person in a psychiatric facility for a short time (even then requiring a medical doctor to sign off on it), but afterwards, the local court is immediately involved. I don't know if the measure was warranted in this particular case, but your assertion isn't right: there are lots of people criticising the government and they don't all get locked up.
- rqis 7y ago
  "Policy debate and opposition to government" is never curbed, it gives the population the feeling that they accomplish something with discussions. Actually doing something is curbed in many ways. > unilaterally "revoked" them on her website. So what, that's like Stallman redefining terms. Hardly a cause for concern, I wonder if some readers are mentally unstable if they take that seriously. > declaring herself to be "Public Enemy #1" If your website is shut down, why would you not get anxious? The whole thing is an overreaction.
  - Tainnor 7y ago
    You can do lots of things, e.g. stage an online protest, sign petitions, vote for different parties in the next elections (and it's not as if you don't have a choice; compared to the US with its two-party system, you can really pick your favourites in Germany), call your representatives, join a political party or create a new one, sue the government, ... What you can't do is unilaterally decide that you don't like a law and ignore it. Asking other people to gather outside for a demonstration when this kind of action is currently disallowed is incitement and therefore illegal. As others have said, debates around the current measures are allowed and happening. Several parties have already filed lawsuits. In all cases that I know of, the constitutional court has rejected the preliminary injunctions. This means that, while the constitutional court may still decide in the future that the laws were anti-constitutional, they have decided that the harm to the individual due to these laws does not outweigh the harm of these laws not being enforced _were_ they constitutional. As to whether they needed to shut down the web site or whether that is actually legal: I don't know. But the police, especially local police, sometimes does things of questionable legality, as in every country. Of course, you can always sue the police and demand that your website be restored, and then the courts will examine your arguments. It's not a perfect system (no system is), but you do have legal options.
    - azpk 7y ago
      No one cares about online protests or petitions, please. The majority of Germans is against the television protection money. You have to pay this protection money even if you do not own a television, or else you'll be thrown in debtor's prison and your credit score is ruined. The protection money ruled "constitutional" by the Verfassungsgericht. That is how democracy works. So, since you are so informed: What should I do? Found my own party, vote AfD? Neither of these is an actual option for me.
- thunfischbrot 7y ago
  Listening to her talk about her experience ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_OjhG5hFhc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_OjhG5hFhc ) - she may or may not be generally paranoid, I would not be surprised either way - she called the police because she felt surveilled and pursued - her initial treatment by the police is really inappropriate if it happened as she describes (being cuffed behind her back on the ground, being pushed onto the floor in the psychiatric clinic headfirst) and I still would not be surprised if it happened that way - I would not be surprised if this is unfortunately 'normal' for police encountering who they think of as a 'confused' person - Aside from the way she described being treated by the police her experience might(!) be reasonable treatment for a person suspected of being paranoid with potential future self-harm. I do not know how this diagnosis is determined and whether it is accurate in this case. - she seems very focused on herself and a conspiracy, talking about how 'of course' each of the police and the doctor/psychiatrists and everyone in Germany and everyone in the world knows her (I did not know of her for one), and that the receiving doctor/psychiatrist took ten minutes to arrive as he/she still had to receive orders 'from the top' - the strongest indicator for being paranoid is that she states that the people in Germany and this world should wake up to this fake pandemic, which is orchestrated and that not a single person has died yet in Germany. The sincerity with which she states this reminds me of other conspiracy theorists on the far right.

by altac 7y ago

mtmail 7y ago

Counter argument: The website takedown was temporary, in the psychiatry she has access to her mobile phone, police issued press releases. She reports in the psychiatry she's safe from 'dark forces' (https://www.t-online.de/nachrichten/deutschland/id_87699240/corona-polizei-bringt-coronoia-anwaeltin-beate-bahner-in-die-psychiatrie-.html https://www.t-online.de/nachrichten/deutschland/id_87699240/...). I wouldn't rule out that indeed she suffers persecution mania.

FabHK 7y ago

That's true, but it could easily be misunderstood as if policy debate and opposition to government in Germany is being curbed, and inconvenient voices being suppressed. That's not true. First, the measures in Germany are of course vigorously debated, and legal challenges are going ahead. Second, that particular lawyer has declared all measures against the COVID-19 unconstitutional and has unilaterally "revoked" them on her website. She then became paranoid when there was a car parked near her house for a long time, hid behind cars, and asked passers-by to call the police, declaring herself to be "Public Enemy #1".

WildGreenLeave 7y ago
Thank you for your reply, I was really confused that what happened to her was because of her asking for a demonstration. I asked a German friend to read up on it but I don't think that is necessary anymore. :)
- banads 7y ago
  Do you think involuntary psychiatric committment and forced drugging is a reasonable reaction by the government to a protester/activist who is paranoid about surveillance in an age of ubiquitous surveillance?
  - coribuci 7y ago
    > Do you think involuntary psychiatric committment and forced drugging is a reasonable reaction by the government to a protester/activist who is paranoid about surveillance in an age of ubiquitous surveillance? Yes. She might have followers, you know.
    - banads 7y ago
      The USSR believed the same thing https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_abuse_of_psychiatry_in_the_Soviet_Union https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_abuse_of_psychiatr...
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
  - csense 7y ago
    Yes, it's a perfectly reasonable backdoor to discredit, shut up and punish troublemakers without involving courts, which have tend to have tedious rules about things like "evidence of wrongdoing," "habeas corpus" and peoples' "rights." After all, government knows best. This is not normal times; in this crisis, citizens' lives are at stake, so the government should be able to do anything, as long as they loudly claim their intentions are pure. Anyone who opposes the government isn't a criminal, because that would guarantee them some due process; they're an insane person who needs to be involuntarily treated. For their own good, of course. /s
    - Tainnor 7y ago
      Do you know the German legal system? The authorities may be able to put a person in a psychiatric facility for a short time (even then requiring a medical doctor to sign off on it), but afterwards, the local court is immediately involved. I don't know if the measure was warranted in this particular case, but your assertion isn't right: there are lots of people criticising the government and they don't all get locked up.
rqis 7y ago
"Policy debate and opposition to government" is never curbed, it gives the population the feeling that they accomplish something with discussions. Actually doing something is curbed in many ways. > unilaterally "revoked" them on her website. So what, that's like Stallman redefining terms. Hardly a cause for concern, I wonder if some readers are mentally unstable if they take that seriously. > declaring herself to be "Public Enemy #1" If your website is shut down, why would you not get anxious? The whole thing is an overreaction.
- Tainnor 7y ago
  You can do lots of things, e.g. stage an online protest, sign petitions, vote for different parties in the next elections (and it's not as if you don't have a choice; compared to the US with its two-party system, you can really pick your favourites in Germany), call your representatives, join a political party or create a new one, sue the government, ... What you can't do is unilaterally decide that you don't like a law and ignore it. Asking other people to gather outside for a demonstration when this kind of action is currently disallowed is incitement and therefore illegal. As others have said, debates around the current measures are allowed and happening. Several parties have already filed lawsuits. In all cases that I know of, the constitutional court has rejected the preliminary injunctions. This means that, while the constitutional court may still decide in the future that the laws were anti-constitutional, they have decided that the harm to the individual due to these laws does not outweigh the harm of these laws not being enforced _were_ they constitutional. As to whether they needed to shut down the web site or whether that is actually legal: I don't know. But the police, especially local police, sometimes does things of questionable legality, as in every country. Of course, you can always sue the police and demand that your website be restored, and then the courts will examine your arguments. It's not a perfect system (no system is), but you do have legal options.
  - azpk 7y ago
    No one cares about online protests or petitions, please. The majority of Germans is against the television protection money. You have to pay this protection money even if you do not own a television, or else you'll be thrown in debtor's prison and your credit score is ruined. The protection money ruled "constitutional" by the Verfassungsgericht. That is how democracy works. So, since you are so informed: What should I do? Found my own party, vote AfD? Neither of these is an actual option for me.
thunfischbrot 7y ago
Listening to her talk about her experience ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_OjhG5hFhc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_OjhG5hFhc ) - she may or may not be generally paranoid, I would not be surprised either way - she called the police because she felt surveilled and pursued - her initial treatment by the police is really inappropriate if it happened as she describes (being cuffed behind her back on the ground, being pushed onto the floor in the psychiatric clinic headfirst) and I still would not be surprised if it happened that way - I would not be surprised if this is unfortunately 'normal' for police encountering who they think of as a 'confused' person - Aside from the way she described being treated by the police her experience might(!) be reasonable treatment for a person suspected of being paranoid with potential future self-harm. I do not know how this diagnosis is determined and whether it is accurate in this case. - she seems very focused on herself and a conspiracy, talking about how 'of course' each of the police and the doctor/psychiatrists and everyone in Germany and everyone in the world knows her (I did not know of her for one), and that the receiving doctor/psychiatrist took ten minutes to arrive as he/she still had to receive orders 'from the top' - the strongest indicator for being paranoid is that she states that the people in Germany and this world should wake up to this fake pandemic, which is orchestrated and that not a single person has died yet in Germany. The sincerity with which she states this reminds me of other conspiracy theorists on the far right.