10 ms·

When such things are done to maintain the human right to live then information freedom will take second place in priorities. Yes that sounds dramatic, but is t

by Zenst 7y ago

When such things are done to maintain the human right to live then information freedom will take second place in priorities. Yes that sounds dramatic, but is the context that is being overlooked here. Should it be opt-in, should it be opt-out. Well I'm already aware of people who go out and leave their mobile at home, so you could ask that those this is going to need to target will not be targetable.

monkeynotes 7y ago
I am keeping an eye on digital passports that may be needed to go grocery shopping, or just go to the park. It's plausible that you will be required to carry your phone, or some kind of digital ID device to check into these places. We are already hearing about immunity passports. I don't want to sound like a nut case, but I can see that once we have this sort of thing as commonplace to deal with Covid it will be expanded and never withdrawn. The phrase "the new normal" is starting to pop up, and I find that terrifying. I am already mourning the life we enjoyed just months ago.
- jaywalk 7y ago
  This is exactly correct, and half of the population (at least in America) is sitting here and begging the government to take away more of their freedom so they can feel safer. I am terrified of what the future holds.
  - monkeynotes 7y ago
    There is zero doubt in my mind life will never, ever be the same again. We've seen this by example of 9/11. That was one tragic day and daily life changed forever. So many people are looking forward to getting out of lockdown and resuming their lives. I don't think those lives exist any more, and they will not return to us. Whatever is on the other side of this isn't what we had before.
    - zabana 7y ago
      Interesting perspective. In what ways do you think our lives will be changed forever ?
      - jacobush 7y ago
        Not sure, but commercial interests are getting a scent of curfew money as we speak. They'll be very creative.
      - Zenst 7y ago
        Well, after the last war, many countries had conscription to bolster their armies and to have resources better prepared if there was one again. So I would not be supprised and indeed would welcome countries doing Medical conscription and if you raise up whole generations who have done even a few weeks of medical training and with that, raise the basic level of health and first aid knowledge. That alone would make things better, would reduce those needing to go to the doctor and in the UK with a free access public health service, you cut down on people attending A&E and Doctors with silly issues that would be 101 first aid and basic knowledge treatable or preventable. But that is just one whole area. Food packaging, will change and maybe not in a good way. Early on we saw coffee outlets refuse to use reusable cups for fears of contamination. We have gone from the verge of lambasting individual fruits wrapped in plastic towards one that demands it almost. Be so many ways things will change, directly and more so indirectly. But not all bad, many people got to talk to neibours they never met, via windows a sense of community and shared issues and cohesion will be much better after this. Though high-streets already suffering from online advantages, may well of seen the killer blow from this. Also business wise, it will see many rethink business models and how they operate. Some will diversify, some change direction, some fold and new ones will spring out. Back in the 70's in the UK we had milk delivered daily in glass bottles via electric vehicles. Over time that died out and plastic bottles from supermarkets being the main. We may well see a return of such services and certainly for daily consumables like milk, fruit veg, bread. We will see an increase in companies offering that now as the demand and mentality for that demand after this all, will still be there. Biggest one though, will be more companies open to flexible hours and working from home, which is great.
- zabana 7y ago
  It will be interesting to see what hackers are going to come up with in the future to circumvent these new ways of social control.
  - dsfyu404ed 7y ago
    In the long run political problems require political solutions. If you come up with a technical solution and said solution is adopted widely enough to matter the laws will be changed to render that technical solution irrelevant or illegal (not necessarily directly). For example, the fact that you could make your own alcohol in all sorts of ways and that regular people had easy enough access to alcohol didn't render prohibition irrelevant. Organized crime ran rampant and federal law enforcement ran rampant after them until enough people agreed "yeah this is stupid, let's just make booze legal again" for there to be political will to repeal prohibition.
- Zenst 7y ago
  >immunity passports Yip, that may well become a thing and as we know, that could play out in many ways. How do you make sure people carry them. We happily allow our beloved pets to be chipped with tracking RFID chips. We freely already carry around our own personal RFID bank cards and mobile phones that with each advancement in radio tech alone allows better tracking from the radio aspect alone, let alone all the other smart features built into the radio/chipset. Thing is we take those around with us with a choice, any immunity passports, would the same level of choice play out. You can get 100 people, give them the choice to carry tracking and 99 of them will be happy to do that, yet if you told those 100 people they had to, well - there would be way less than 99 who would happily comply and that is when things get messy. Hence many and much enforcement of lockdowns have been overall, softy softly. In the UK we had a soft lockdown for about a week and the results was not as good, so a more formalised lockdown transpired. Still, mostly softly softly of move along, move along now. But still, it only takes a few to ignore things for the line to be moved further for all. So whatever is needed or done, will be a fine balance in PR with the people and would need clear, precise reasons and durations and full intent outlined. Hence most will be pushed as a choice and if you are offing people some extra level of freedom back during lockdowns, then those that take up even voluntarily will PR wise, work well. Also won't be the ones that you would want to track anyhow in most cases. Though if enough go for it, you start to get a sense of mandate to make it more formalised knowing that the majority have already signed up freely. That is when things may well get interesting concerns.
eternalban 7y ago
Yes, it is "opt-in" for anyone who wants a normal life. There will be a 'choice' of sorts, but I can't see how someone opting out could function in the "new world" the MSM is helpfully educating us about. You may not even be able to take public transportation if you choose "opt-out", and forget about crossing jurisdictional borders, not to say anything of international borders. Anyway, we don't have to guess what this will look like. This system has been beta tested in Oligarchs' pet project, the New China.
spaceribs 7y ago
I don't think it's all doom and gloom, there are plenty of instances where the people have nullified the state's intentions and this will be no different. Let me just list a few here: Cuba: It doesn't matter how many land lines you lock down, people want to watch Game of Thrones. United States: It doesn't matter how many distilleries/dispensaries you close down, people want to drink and smoke. China: It doesn't matter how many children the state says you can have, people want to have children. The dystopia always emerges from the extremes states take to quell people's wants/needs, and almost always nabs the weakest or most brazen "criminals". There is a inexplicable beauty to this dynamic, individual wit versus collective bueracracy, that I admittedly find romantic. In this case, individuals might start putting their phones in the fridge overnight, putting their phones in RF blocking sleeves (or just plain aluminum foil as seen in HK), or like you said, just plain leaving their phones at home. If the state forces phones to act as a form of identity or requires a phone in public, all it takes is one edge case of "Old man without phone brutalized by police" for concessions to the rule. Would you be arrested for not charging your phone? What about if you have an older model? How would the state respond to a hacked version of the identity app being propagated? The fractal of side effects expands as you attempt to answer each one of these questions, and that's why people need to believe the requirements are just and appropriate, unless of course your response is so over the top and totalitarian that only the most viciously clever and brave step up and challenge it.

by Zenst 7y ago

monkeynotes 7y ago

I am keeping an eye on digital passports that may be needed to go grocery shopping, or just go to the park. It's plausible that you will be required to carry your phone, or some kind of digital ID device to check into these places. We are already hearing about immunity passports. I don't want to sound like a nut case, but I can see that once we have this sort of thing as commonplace to deal with Covid it will be expanded and never withdrawn. The phrase "the new normal" is starting to pop up, and I find that terrifying. I am already mourning the life we enjoyed just months ago.

jaywalk 7y ago
This is exactly correct, and half of the population (at least in America) is sitting here and begging the government to take away more of their freedom so they can feel safer. I am terrified of what the future holds.
- monkeynotes 7y ago
  There is zero doubt in my mind life will never, ever be the same again. We've seen this by example of 9/11. That was one tragic day and daily life changed forever. So many people are looking forward to getting out of lockdown and resuming their lives. I don't think those lives exist any more, and they will not return to us. Whatever is on the other side of this isn't what we had before.
  - zabana 7y ago
    Interesting perspective. In what ways do you think our lives will be changed forever ?
    - jacobush 7y ago
      Not sure, but commercial interests are getting a scent of curfew money as we speak. They'll be very creative.
    - Zenst 7y ago
      Well, after the last war, many countries had conscription to bolster their armies and to have resources better prepared if there was one again. So I would not be supprised and indeed would welcome countries doing Medical conscription and if you raise up whole generations who have done even a few weeks of medical training and with that, raise the basic level of health and first aid knowledge. That alone would make things better, would reduce those needing to go to the doctor and in the UK with a free access public health service, you cut down on people attending A&E and Doctors with silly issues that would be 101 first aid and basic knowledge treatable or preventable. But that is just one whole area. Food packaging, will change and maybe not in a good way. Early on we saw coffee outlets refuse to use reusable cups for fears of contamination. We have gone from the verge of lambasting individual fruits wrapped in plastic towards one that demands it almost. Be so many ways things will change, directly and more so indirectly. But not all bad, many people got to talk to neibours they never met, via windows a sense of community and shared issues and cohesion will be much better after this. Though high-streets already suffering from online advantages, may well of seen the killer blow from this. Also business wise, it will see many rethink business models and how they operate. Some will diversify, some change direction, some fold and new ones will spring out. Back in the 70's in the UK we had milk delivered daily in glass bottles via electric vehicles. Over time that died out and plastic bottles from supermarkets being the main. We may well see a return of such services and certainly for daily consumables like milk, fruit veg, bread. We will see an increase in companies offering that now as the demand and mentality for that demand after this all, will still be there. Biggest one though, will be more companies open to flexible hours and working from home, which is great.
zabana 7y ago
It will be interesting to see what hackers are going to come up with in the future to circumvent these new ways of social control.
- dsfyu404ed 7y ago
  In the long run political problems require political solutions. If you come up with a technical solution and said solution is adopted widely enough to matter the laws will be changed to render that technical solution irrelevant or illegal (not necessarily directly). For example, the fact that you could make your own alcohol in all sorts of ways and that regular people had easy enough access to alcohol didn't render prohibition irrelevant. Organized crime ran rampant and federal law enforcement ran rampant after them until enough people agreed "yeah this is stupid, let's just make booze legal again" for there to be political will to repeal prohibition.
Zenst 7y ago
>immunity passports Yip, that may well become a thing and as we know, that could play out in many ways. How do you make sure people carry them. We happily allow our beloved pets to be chipped with tracking RFID chips. We freely already carry around our own personal RFID bank cards and mobile phones that with each advancement in radio tech alone allows better tracking from the radio aspect alone, let alone all the other smart features built into the radio/chipset. Thing is we take those around with us with a choice, any immunity passports, would the same level of choice play out. You can get 100 people, give them the choice to carry tracking and 99 of them will be happy to do that, yet if you told those 100 people they had to, well - there would be way less than 99 who would happily comply and that is when things get messy. Hence many and much enforcement of lockdowns have been overall, softy softly. In the UK we had a soft lockdown for about a week and the results was not as good, so a more formalised lockdown transpired. Still, mostly softly softly of move along, move along now. But still, it only takes a few to ignore things for the line to be moved further for all. So whatever is needed or done, will be a fine balance in PR with the people and would need clear, precise reasons and durations and full intent outlined. Hence most will be pushed as a choice and if you are offing people some extra level of freedom back during lockdowns, then those that take up even voluntarily will PR wise, work well. Also won't be the ones that you would want to track anyhow in most cases. Though if enough go for it, you start to get a sense of mandate to make it more formalised knowing that the majority have already signed up freely. That is when things may well get interesting concerns.

eternalban 7y ago

Yes, it is "opt-in" for anyone who wants a normal life. There will be a 'choice' of sorts, but I can't see how someone opting out could function in the "new world" the MSM is helpfully educating us about. You may not even be able to take public transportation if you choose "opt-out", and forget about crossing jurisdictional borders, not to say anything of international borders. Anyway, we don't have to guess what this will look like. This system has been beta tested in Oligarchs' pet project, the New China.

spaceribs 7y ago

I don't think it's all doom and gloom, there are plenty of instances where the people have nullified the state's intentions and this will be no different. Let me just list a few here: Cuba: It doesn't matter how many land lines you lock down, people want to watch Game of Thrones. United States: It doesn't matter how many distilleries/dispensaries you close down, people want to drink and smoke. China: It doesn't matter how many children the state says you can have, people want to have children. The dystopia always emerges from the extremes states take to quell people's wants/needs, and almost always nabs the weakest or most brazen "criminals". There is a inexplicable beauty to this dynamic, individual wit versus collective bueracracy, that I admittedly find romantic. In this case, individuals might start putting their phones in the fridge overnight, putting their phones in RF blocking sleeves (or just plain aluminum foil as seen in HK), or like you said, just plain leaving their phones at home. If the state forces phones to act as a form of identity or requires a phone in public, all it takes is one edge case of "Old man without phone brutalized by police" for concessions to the rule. Would you be arrested for not charging your phone? What about if you have an older model? How would the state respond to a hacked version of the identity app being propagated? The fractal of side effects expands as you attempt to answer each one of these questions, and that's why people need to believe the requirements are just and appropriate, unless of course your response is so over the top and totalitarian that only the most viciously clever and brave step up and challenge it.