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I'm even more terrified by what's going on at the not-so-virtual level. In Poland, where I come from they have been exercising a crawling coup d'état and turnin

I'm even more terrified by what's going on at the not-so-virtual level. In Poland, where I come from they have been exercising a crawling coup d'état and turning the country into a police state. They passed laws that go directly against the constitution, they refuse to postpone presidential elections in early May and they started terrorising whole communities with overwhelming police harassment. They event chose to give a raise to the police and not the healthcare workers. I only hope the EU steps in soon or we'll see Poland drifting towards an authoritarian regime

eternalban 7y ago
https://mobile.twitter.com/Thomas_Binder/status/1249069412822417408 https://mobile.twitter.com/Thomas_Binder/status/124906941282... That was in Switzerland. The doctor [1] has a history of challenging establishment narratives and was previously arrested in conjunction with the chemical attacks in Syria. I have read second hand accounts that assert that he was arrested, taken to a mental hospital, and has been released. https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Thomas_Binder2 https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Thomas_Binder2
altac 7y ago
In Germany, a lawyer who called for a demonstration against the curfew first had her website taken down and has been put into psychiatry now (no English link, the Welt is decently reputable): https://www.welt.de/vermischtes/article207246011/Heidelberg-Aufbegehren-gegen-Corona-Regeln-Anwaeltin-in-Psychiatrie-eingewiesen.html#Comments https://www.welt.de/vermischtes/article207246011/Heidelberg-...
- mtmail 7y ago
  Counter argument: The website takedown was temporary, in the psychiatry she has access to her mobile phone, police issued press releases. She reports in the psychiatry she's safe from 'dark forces' (https://www.t-online.de/nachrichten/deutschland/id_87699240/corona-polizei-bringt-coronoia-anwaeltin-beate-bahner-in-die-psychiatrie-.html https://www.t-online.de/nachrichten/deutschland/id_87699240/...). I wouldn't rule out that indeed she suffers persecution mania.
- FabHK 7y ago
  That's true, but it could easily be misunderstood as if policy debate and opposition to government in Germany is being curbed, and inconvenient voices being suppressed. That's not true. First, the measures in Germany are of course vigorously debated, and legal challenges are going ahead. Second, that particular lawyer has declared all measures against the COVID-19 unconstitutional and has unilaterally "revoked" them on her website. She then became paranoid when there was a car parked near her house for a long time, hid behind cars, and asked passers-by to call the police, declaring herself to be "Public Enemy #1".
  - WildGreenLeave 7y ago
    Thank you for your reply, I was really confused that what happened to her was because of her asking for a demonstration. I asked a German friend to read up on it but I don't think that is necessary anymore. :)
    - banads 7y ago
      Do you think involuntary psychiatric committment and forced drugging is a reasonable reaction by the government to a protester/activist who is paranoid about surveillance in an age of ubiquitous surveillance?
      - coribuci 7y ago
        > Do you think involuntary psychiatric committment and forced drugging is a reasonable reaction by the government to a protester/activist who is paranoid about surveillance in an age of ubiquitous surveillance? Yes. She might have followers, you know.
        banads 7y ago
        The USSR believed the same thing https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_abuse_of_psychiatry_in_the_Soviet_Union https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_abuse_of_psychiatr...
        deleted 7y ago
nabla9 7y ago
EU can't do much. Poland (radical right government) and Hungary (far right government) have a pact where they veto any EU actions against one of them. Members of EU are sovereign states. I think kicking them out of the union is only way to proceed if their system does not fit into the EU anymore.
- squarefoot 7y ago
  "Poland (radical right government) and Hungary (far right government) have a pact where they veto any EU actions against one of them." Same will happen in Italy in a few years. "I think kicking them out of the union is only way to proceed if their system does not fit into the EU anymore." To keep the EU clean, yes, but it won't accomplish anything locally: far right governments would actually love to get out of the European Union so they can do their nasty stuff unsupervised.
  - jacobush 7y ago
    But if they are allowed to stay, it sets a very dangerous precedent. Realistically, they will stay.
    - squarefoot 7y ago
      Also a good point.
  - nabla9 7y ago
    > To keep the EU clean, yes, but it won't accomplish anything locally It's not EUs job to do that. There is genuine grassroots support for illiberal government in both countries. People in these countries are divided and have to fight it out among themselves. The responsibility is to upkeep liberal democracy is in the hands of the people.
    - kazen44 7y ago
      This statement is absurd and counter to the entire basis of modern european union law. For a country to be eligble for EU membership, it has to be a democracy and be a signatory of the Charter of Fundamental Rights and acknowledge the legitimacy of the european court of human rights and European Court of Justice. While the ECHR is not a EU institution, it is a cornerstone of european diplomacy both inside and outside the union. [1] https://europa.eu/european-union/topics/human-rights_en https://europa.eu/european-union/topics/human-rights_en
new2628 7y ago
It doesn't further your cause that you present your point of view as a widely agreed-upon truth. Last time I checked, the government in Poland enjoyed a wide support of a majority of the population.
- pjc50 7y ago
  Police states often are widely supported by the majority of the population, all the way up to the point where they stop holding elections and allowing the possibility of being unpopular.
  - new2628 7y ago
    Poland is very far from being a police state.
pjc50 7y ago
The EU is not going to intervene in domestic sovereignty. The human rights violations would have to get extremely severe for that to happen, and I don't think there are explicit clauses in the treaties about it. That is a particular Rubicon they are not willing to cross. (or in this case, the checks map Oder)
- jacobush 7y ago
  I think the EU could theoretically kick them out, also there are some other kind of sanctions mentioned re Hungary which could be used but I don't remember which ones.
  - new2628 7y ago
    On what grounds should they be kicked out? For people in those countries not voting according to the preferences of the Swedish media?
    - hwh 7y ago
      On the grounds of article 7, referencing article 2, of the Treaty on European Union (this is basically the constitution of the EU).
    - ben_w 7y ago
      For violating their treaty obligations, which includes adherence to human rights, which includes democratic accountability and rule of law. (I’m simplifying, of course; I’m no lawyer).
jupp0r 7y ago
The EU is not going to come rescue you. The far right government is winning landslide election victories and is immensely popular with the electorate. What should the EU do? You can either be an activist and do something to convince your fellow citizens - or - enjoy (the hopefully soon to be reestablished) freedom of movement in the EU, move to a proper democracy and vote with your feet.

eternalban 7y ago

https://mobile.twitter.com/Thomas_Binder/status/1249069412822417408 https://mobile.twitter.com/Thomas_Binder/status/124906941282... That was in Switzerland. The doctor [1] has a history of challenging establishment narratives and was previously arrested in conjunction with the chemical attacks in Syria. I have read second hand accounts that assert that he was arrested, taken to a mental hospital, and has been released. https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Thomas_Binder2 https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Thomas_Binder2

altac 7y ago

In Germany, a lawyer who called for a demonstration against the curfew first had her website taken down and has been put into psychiatry now (no English link, the Welt is decently reputable): https://www.welt.de/vermischtes/article207246011/Heidelberg-Aufbegehren-gegen-Corona-Regeln-Anwaeltin-in-Psychiatrie-eingewiesen.html#Comments https://www.welt.de/vermischtes/article207246011/Heidelberg-...

mtmail 7y ago
Counter argument: The website takedown was temporary, in the psychiatry she has access to her mobile phone, police issued press releases. She reports in the psychiatry she's safe from 'dark forces' (https://www.t-online.de/nachrichten/deutschland/id_87699240/corona-polizei-bringt-coronoia-anwaeltin-beate-bahner-in-die-psychiatrie-.html https://www.t-online.de/nachrichten/deutschland/id_87699240/...). I wouldn't rule out that indeed she suffers persecution mania.
FabHK 7y ago
That's true, but it could easily be misunderstood as if policy debate and opposition to government in Germany is being curbed, and inconvenient voices being suppressed. That's not true. First, the measures in Germany are of course vigorously debated, and legal challenges are going ahead. Second, that particular lawyer has declared all measures against the COVID-19 unconstitutional and has unilaterally "revoked" them on her website. She then became paranoid when there was a car parked near her house for a long time, hid behind cars, and asked passers-by to call the police, declaring herself to be "Public Enemy #1".
- WildGreenLeave 7y ago
  Thank you for your reply, I was really confused that what happened to her was because of her asking for a demonstration. I asked a German friend to read up on it but I don't think that is necessary anymore. :)
  - banads 7y ago
    Do you think involuntary psychiatric committment and forced drugging is a reasonable reaction by the government to a protester/activist who is paranoid about surveillance in an age of ubiquitous surveillance?
    - coribuci 7y ago
      > Do you think involuntary psychiatric committment and forced drugging is a reasonable reaction by the government to a protester/activist who is paranoid about surveillance in an age of ubiquitous surveillance? Yes. She might have followers, you know.
      - banads 7y ago
        The USSR believed the same thing https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_abuse_of_psychiatry_in_the_Soviet_Union https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_abuse_of_psychiatr...
      - deleted 7y ago

nabla9 7y ago

EU can't do much. Poland (radical right government) and Hungary (far right government) have a pact where they veto any EU actions against one of them. Members of EU are sovereign states. I think kicking them out of the union is only way to proceed if their system does not fit into the EU anymore.

squarefoot 7y ago
"Poland (radical right government) and Hungary (far right government) have a pact where they veto any EU actions against one of them." Same will happen in Italy in a few years. "I think kicking them out of the union is only way to proceed if their system does not fit into the EU anymore." To keep the EU clean, yes, but it won't accomplish anything locally: far right governments would actually love to get out of the European Union so they can do their nasty stuff unsupervised.
- jacobush 7y ago
  But if they are allowed to stay, it sets a very dangerous precedent. Realistically, they will stay.
  - squarefoot 7y ago
    Also a good point.
- nabla9 7y ago
  > To keep the EU clean, yes, but it won't accomplish anything locally It's not EUs job to do that. There is genuine grassroots support for illiberal government in both countries. People in these countries are divided and have to fight it out among themselves. The responsibility is to upkeep liberal democracy is in the hands of the people.
  - kazen44 7y ago
    This statement is absurd and counter to the entire basis of modern european union law. For a country to be eligble for EU membership, it has to be a democracy and be a signatory of the Charter of Fundamental Rights and acknowledge the legitimacy of the european court of human rights and European Court of Justice. While the ECHR is not a EU institution, it is a cornerstone of european diplomacy both inside and outside the union. [1] https://europa.eu/european-union/topics/human-rights_en https://europa.eu/european-union/topics/human-rights_en

new2628 7y ago

It doesn't further your cause that you present your point of view as a widely agreed-upon truth. Last time I checked, the government in Poland enjoyed a wide support of a majority of the population.

pjc50 7y ago
Police states often are widely supported by the majority of the population, all the way up to the point where they stop holding elections and allowing the possibility of being unpopular.
- new2628 7y ago
  Poland is very far from being a police state.

pjc50 7y ago

The EU is not going to intervene in domestic sovereignty. The human rights violations would have to get extremely severe for that to happen, and I don't think there are explicit clauses in the treaties about it. That is a particular Rubicon they are not willing to cross. (or in this case, the checks map Oder)

jacobush 7y ago
I think the EU could theoretically kick them out, also there are some other kind of sanctions mentioned re Hungary which could be used but I don't remember which ones.
- new2628 7y ago
  On what grounds should they be kicked out? For people in those countries not voting according to the preferences of the Swedish media?
  - hwh 7y ago
    On the grounds of article 7, referencing article 2, of the Treaty on European Union (this is basically the constitution of the EU).
  - ben_w 7y ago
    For violating their treaty obligations, which includes adherence to human rights, which includes democratic accountability and rule of law. (I’m simplifying, of course; I’m no lawyer).

jupp0r 7y ago

The EU is not going to come rescue you. The far right government is winning landslide election victories and is immensely popular with the electorate. What should the EU do? You can either be an activist and do something to convince your fellow citizens - or - enjoy (the hopefully soon to be reestablished) freedom of movement in the EU, move to a proper democracy and vote with your feet.