4 ms·

This doesn't seem to be a common opinion, but I generally don't understand why USPS is critical infrastructure. Vote by mail is just about the only essential se

by cactus2093 7y ago

This doesn't seem to be a common opinion, but I generally don't understand why USPS is critical infrastructure. Vote by mail is just about the only essential service they provide that I can think of, and that could potentially still be supported in other ways without USPS the other 364 days of the year. Many of the justifications I've come across of why mail is essential seem to center around transmission of information being essential, and I 100% agree with that. But these days important information does not need to be transmitted by mail. The fact that many important services are still tied to hard-copies of paper - like mailing checks, mailing bills, mailing a warning when a bill has been missed, etc. causes some completely unnecessary problems. It's easier to keep a phone number or email address active for many years, but an address for a large percentage of the population is temporary. I've seen the argument made that not everybody has internet access, and that this is an equality issue that physical mail is still necessary for less privileged people. But many poor people are more likely to have a cell phone than have stable housing with a stable mailing address. And public libraries provide internet access for those who don't have it otherwise. Also, and this part is arguably a first world problem but it's still a big annoyance, the junk mail that props up USPS is completely out of control. How is an essential government service entirely ad-supported like USPS is? That seems crazy. Imagine if the fire department made you watch some ads after they put out your fire. I'm not arguing for getting rid of the USPS now, we do seem to need vote by mail at least for a while longer until we have a better, sufficiently secure alternative. I just think all these arguments about how essential it is to the fabric of modern society are bit outdated. Edit: anyone who is downvoting me care to comment on what I'm wrong about?

Loughla 7y ago
>It's easier to keep a phone number or email address active for many years, but an address for a large percentage of the population is temporary. Working with low-income folks daily, this is not true in total. We have to check phone numbers and e-mail addresses every time we interact with our clients, because they cycle through them almost monthly. Physical addresses tend to change annually. >And public libraries provide internet access for those who don't have it otherwise. There is no public library with internet access within 100 miles of my current address. >How is an essential government service entirely ad-supported like USPS is? They're not entirely ad supported? >I just think all these arguments about how essential it is to the fabric of modern society are bit outdated. And this is my take - your view is of a young, middle- to upper-middle-class person with no problems accessing the modern world today. For poor people, for rural people, the mail is essential. I receive all of my bills via mail, because the internet is so bad here. My bank does not offer bill-payment, and I don't want to link my bank account to a third party site, outside of using my bank to auto bill pay, if that's even an option.
- cactus2093 7y ago
  > I don't want to link my bank account to a third party site anyway. And this is just my take, but this last sentence really weakens the rest of your argument. Your view seems to be that of someone who's uncomfortable with modern technology. At some point, we'll need to accept that being uncomfortable with the status quo of antiquated, painfully slow, inefficient non-tech solutions is just as valid of a viewpoint as being uncomfortable with technology.
  - Loughla 7y ago
    Sorry, I wasn't as clear as I should've been. I updated the comment to clarify. It's not that I don't want to pay bills electronically. It's that my bank won't let me. So I assume the only other option is some kind of third party, similar to paypal, if that even exists for this kind of thing.
Spooky23 7y ago
You shouldn't be downvoted... you're expressing valid questions that should be understood. With issues like mail, voter-id, etc you really need to remember that there are 300+ million people in the United States, and most of the others that you know are like you. You gotta walk a mile in others' shoes. I come from a place in rural upstate NY where broadband is only available to about 75% of the population, the legacy POTS system is being allowed to fail, and cellular service is available to about 50%. Should my former neighbors be cut off from functioning in modern society because they can't get mail? Today, I own a home and have to pay property taxes and garbage bills. Should my ability to keep my home be contingent on my phone service? What if my phone carrier screw up and ports my number without my permission? What if I screw up, don't update my credit card and have service suspended? The other alternative, public libraries, are also being starved of funding in many areas. USPS may deserve to decline or evolve. But killing it in the middle of a crisis for stupid political reasons is not a strategy.
- cactus2093 7y ago
  Genuine question - how available is home phone service and DSL internet in that area? Email, and ability to load some official websites is the critical service, which doesn't need to be that fast. > Should my ability to keep my home be contingent on my phone service? No, ideally not just on phone service. But on something digital that is free and doesn't require any effort to keep it live over an extended period of time (perhaps email). This kind of thing is exactly my point though, should your ability to participate in society be contingent on living in one place for a prolonged period of time? When I was younger I knew a lot of people that would bum around for a while, travel, crash on friends couches, etc. I remember multiple friends who had a relatively small bill get sent to collections and ruin their credit for the next 7 years because the service had an old address on file. It seems crazy to me that this can happen, that you'd just be sent a few pieces of paper of which it can never be verified that you've actually received them, and no one ever needs to make an effort to call or email you, and then that ruins your credit. And these people were relatively well off and overall pretty responsible in the scheme of things, I can only imagine this type of thing must also screw over chronically poor people all the time. > killing it in the middle of a crisis for stupid political reasons is not a strategy 100% agree with that, I've just wondered a for a long time why so many official things still done primarily through mail. In my opinion it's worth at least having a public discussion about why things are even still done this way, and therefore whether we still actually need the USPS. But it seems that even on this tech website most people don't agree. I do appreciate your comment, ultimately it seems like these arguments fall along a very stark a rural/urban divide. I'm so used to living in cities that it's just ingrained in my mind that housing and something like a physical address is a premium and scarce resource and anything digital can be much more freely available and unconstrained. It's hard to even fathom that in some people's reality it is the opposite (and even after reading your arguments, I'm still skeptical to what extent that is the case).
qppo 7y ago
>I generally don't understand why USPS is critical infrastructure Private citizens and businesses need to get physical things from point A to point B regardless of where point A and B are in the country. It should be self evident that the infrastructure needed to do that is critical. As for whether or not the USPS is the best way to do that, there's been some constitutional arguments and debate that's taken place over the last 250 years. > How is an essential government service entirely ad-supported like USPS is? Because Republicans hate taxes and unions, and the USPS is one of the largest public sector unions that they can't get rid of (due to aforementioned Constitutional requirements) so they force the USPS to over-fund themselves without taxes. >Imagine if the fire department made you watch some ads after they put out your fire. Imagine if Congress told fire departments across the country that they weren't allowed to take tax dollars to fund themselves.
nerdponx 7y ago
You forgot about shipping. USPS Priority is the most efficient way to ship packages domestically in my experience.

Loughla 7y ago

>It's easier to keep a phone number or email address active for many years, but an address for a large percentage of the population is temporary. Working with low-income folks daily, this is not true in total. We have to check phone numbers and e-mail addresses every time we interact with our clients, because they cycle through them almost monthly. Physical addresses tend to change annually. >And public libraries provide internet access for those who don't have it otherwise. There is no public library with internet access within 100 miles of my current address. >How is an essential government service entirely ad-supported like USPS is? They're not entirely ad supported? >I just think all these arguments about how essential it is to the fabric of modern society are bit outdated. And this is my take - your view is of a young, middle- to upper-middle-class person with no problems accessing the modern world today. For poor people, for rural people, the mail is essential. I receive all of my bills via mail, because the internet is so bad here. My bank does not offer bill-payment, and I don't want to link my bank account to a third party site, outside of using my bank to auto bill pay, if that's even an option.

cactus2093 7y ago
> I don't want to link my bank account to a third party site anyway. And this is just my take, but this last sentence really weakens the rest of your argument. Your view seems to be that of someone who's uncomfortable with modern technology. At some point, we'll need to accept that being uncomfortable with the status quo of antiquated, painfully slow, inefficient non-tech solutions is just as valid of a viewpoint as being uncomfortable with technology.
- Loughla 7y ago
  Sorry, I wasn't as clear as I should've been. I updated the comment to clarify. It's not that I don't want to pay bills electronically. It's that my bank won't let me. So I assume the only other option is some kind of third party, similar to paypal, if that even exists for this kind of thing.

Spooky23 7y ago

You shouldn't be downvoted... you're expressing valid questions that should be understood. With issues like mail, voter-id, etc you really need to remember that there are 300+ million people in the United States, and most of the others that you know are like you. You gotta walk a mile in others' shoes. I come from a place in rural upstate NY where broadband is only available to about 75% of the population, the legacy POTS system is being allowed to fail, and cellular service is available to about 50%. Should my former neighbors be cut off from functioning in modern society because they can't get mail? Today, I own a home and have to pay property taxes and garbage bills. Should my ability to keep my home be contingent on my phone service? What if my phone carrier screw up and ports my number without my permission? What if I screw up, don't update my credit card and have service suspended? The other alternative, public libraries, are also being starved of funding in many areas. USPS may deserve to decline or evolve. But killing it in the middle of a crisis for stupid political reasons is not a strategy.

cactus2093 7y ago
Genuine question - how available is home phone service and DSL internet in that area? Email, and ability to load some official websites is the critical service, which doesn't need to be that fast. > Should my ability to keep my home be contingent on my phone service? No, ideally not just on phone service. But on something digital that is free and doesn't require any effort to keep it live over an extended period of time (perhaps email). This kind of thing is exactly my point though, should your ability to participate in society be contingent on living in one place for a prolonged period of time? When I was younger I knew a lot of people that would bum around for a while, travel, crash on friends couches, etc. I remember multiple friends who had a relatively small bill get sent to collections and ruin their credit for the next 7 years because the service had an old address on file. It seems crazy to me that this can happen, that you'd just be sent a few pieces of paper of which it can never be verified that you've actually received them, and no one ever needs to make an effort to call or email you, and then that ruins your credit. And these people were relatively well off and overall pretty responsible in the scheme of things, I can only imagine this type of thing must also screw over chronically poor people all the time. > killing it in the middle of a crisis for stupid political reasons is not a strategy 100% agree with that, I've just wondered a for a long time why so many official things still done primarily through mail. In my opinion it's worth at least having a public discussion about why things are even still done this way, and therefore whether we still actually need the USPS. But it seems that even on this tech website most people don't agree. I do appreciate your comment, ultimately it seems like these arguments fall along a very stark a rural/urban divide. I'm so used to living in cities that it's just ingrained in my mind that housing and something like a physical address is a premium and scarce resource and anything digital can be much more freely available and unconstrained. It's hard to even fathom that in some people's reality it is the opposite (and even after reading your arguments, I'm still skeptical to what extent that is the case).

qppo 7y ago

>I generally don't understand why USPS is critical infrastructure Private citizens and businesses need to get physical things from point A to point B regardless of where point A and B are in the country. It should be self evident that the infrastructure needed to do that is critical. As for whether or not the USPS is the best way to do that, there's been some constitutional arguments and debate that's taken place over the last 250 years. > How is an essential government service entirely ad-supported like USPS is? Because Republicans hate taxes and unions, and the USPS is one of the largest public sector unions that they can't get rid of (due to aforementioned Constitutional requirements) so they force the USPS to over-fund themselves without taxes. >Imagine if the fire department made you watch some ads after they put out your fire. Imagine if Congress told fire departments across the country that they weren't allowed to take tax dollars to fund themselves.

nerdponx 7y ago

You forgot about shipping. USPS Priority is the most efficient way to ship packages domestically in my experience.