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I understand that space fanbois find manned space exploration romantic. But it's not all about entertaining you. Manned space flight has been a complete waste

I understand that space fanbois find manned space exploration romantic. But it's not all about entertaining you. Manned space flight has been a complete waste of resources and money, and likely will remain that way for the next 100 years. Since 1970 far more influential events: - 747 (early 1970) - Intel 4004 (1971) - GPS (1980s) - Internet (1990s) But aside from that, there have been incremental improvements of 1%/year in areas like fuel efficiency, medicine and metallurgy. That really adds up over 50 years. The Space Shuttle literally ate America's space exploration budget, and didn't even go past LEO. Everybody knew this, yet nobody did anything about it. The US needs to adopt space policies that actually advance science and technology, not manned spaceflight just for feel-good PR shots. A good start would be de-orbiting the ISS ASAP - the final manned space flight should be to send somebody to the ISS with a chain saw.

jve 7y ago
Now think about when would we have GPS if there hasn't been rush to the space. It helps put todays (communication) satellites into space.
- Mediterraneo10 7y ago
  There were satellites before there was man in space, and still today communication and GPS satellites are launched without the need for a human being to position them. In fact, many communication satellites are launched from completely different infrastructure than the US or Russia’s manned-spacecraft sites.
mb_72 7y ago
> The US needs to adopt space policies that actually advance science and technology, not manned spaceflight just for feel-good PR shots. I would guess that your man-in-the-street can identify much more readily with another human doing 'something' in space than they can some 'robot', even if the latter might be more more productive. And what's wrong with some 'entertainment', not every aspect of life needs to be optimised and tuned for full productivity / efficiency.
- TomMarius 7y ago
  > not every aspect of life needs to be optimised and tuned for full productivity / efficiency. Eh, this what we're talking about is public money forcefully taken as taxes
  - ben_w 7y ago
    One of the criticisms I keep hearing about NASA is that the very thing which made it good in the Space Race era has also been the milestone around its neck ever since — that it is structured as a pork barrel jobs program in each and every state. I have no way to tell how fair that claim is, but I’m sure someone here has either been into space or worked closely enough with NASA to comment. If that’s true, the “waste” is also the advertising that gets the funding for the things which matter. And that’s even ignoring the possibility that the manned missions do the things which can’t be automated.
    - TomMarius 7y ago
      I was talking about efficient usage of public money, not NASA
      - mb_72 7y ago
        NASA's budget is less than half of 1% of the USA total budget (2020 figures from Wikipedia). I daresay there are other areas (cough military spending cough) that would benefit from some examination as to where money can be saved through reduction / efficiencies. BTW I'm not American, but have followed NASA projects for many, many years, and they almost always give me some greater hope for the future of mankind (not to mention admiration for the science and engineering people behind the scenes).
        TomMarius 7y ago
        Okay, but as I said, I did not talk about NASA at all. I was talking about making sure all public money is used for public benefit and not for entertainment as the OP suggested, because if you're taking money from someone with force "for their benefit", you better not waste it. I don't think what NASA does is wrong, btw. Not an American as well.
andrewl-hn 7y ago
I agree to almost all points, but de-orbiting ISS would be a waste. Dozens of astronauts go there (and to Mir before that) every year for decades, and yet every day their work time is packed with scientific experiments. Sure, some of that work could be done by automatic labs, but humans can do a lot of things machines still can't. So, it's a valuable source of data and knowledge that we wouldn't get otherwise. ISS is expected to function for another 10 years, and its lifetime is very likely to be extended further. Big part of ongoing expenses is transportation of materials and personnel, but it will be lowered over time due to competition.
- dredmorbius 7y ago
  I've suspected for a couple of decades now that the most significant science aboard the ISS is simply living in space. What are the impacts on individual human bodies, on equipment, crews, projects, international collaboration and cooperation. But mostly uman-body effects so far as I can make out. Transfer of which to terrestrial use is nonzero, but likely limited. I've periodically requested lists of acievements in other fields -- the supposed actual intent of the station. Answers have been ... vague. Nasa's own list: Space Station Research Goals, NASA Research: - Space Life and Physical Sciences - Research and Applications - Human Research Program - Science Mission Directorate - Advanced Exploration Systems - Space Technology Mission Directorate Similarly here: https://web.archive.org/web/20080123150641/http://pdlprod3.hosc.msfc.nasa.gov/A-fieldsresearch/index.html https://web.archive.org/web/20080123150641/http://pdlprod3.h... Astronomy, planetary science, reconnaissance, and communications seem to make up the lions share of the remainder.
kiba 7y ago
The problem is not manned space exploration. The problem is a lack of focus on making space exploration cheaper, and a lack of investment. Space Shuttle wasn't cheaper. It was ridiculously expensive, with designs decisions that shouldn't be made in the first place. If it was just a rocket that launched astronauts into space. That would be one thing. It's quite another to carry literal deadweight into space. Look at SpaceX's starship program. It's much more ambitious than anything we have on the drawing board. It isn't just another super heavy lift rocket, but a mass manufacturable reusable launch system. Everyone else is still thinking about how they will make reusuable rockets. Meanwhile, SpaceX is making their own game, playing on their own level. Manned flight isn't a burden. It has nothing to do with why we stagnated in rocket development. In fact, manned flight is the point of SpaceX, especially colonization.
- Spooky23 7y ago
  Space Shuttle was a system designed around classified military requirements that disappeared and left the civilian program holding the bag.
- gibsonf1 7y ago
  Can you image the government in charge of mobile phone design? The incredible innovation of Space X is primarily that it's a private company with accountability and incentives around it's customers, and of course run by someone who truly understands both the problem and the evolving technology.
  - KozmoNau7 7y ago
    Can you imagine mobile devices that are not built to extract the maximum possible profit from the systematic exploitation of people's private data and attention spans, leading to political manipulation and instability, all to further fill the coffers of the global elite, who already own most of the world?
bryanlarsen 7y ago
I think that most space fanboys would agree with part of your argument. Just like the Shuttle did in the late 70's and 80's, Artemis and the Space Launch System are decimating NASA's budget to perform real science. It's particularly galling that NASA is giving Boeing $2B/launch whereas Elon is targeting $2M/launch for a similar capability. Few people believe he'll reach that target, but a miss on such an audacious target will get us far more than spending much more on something that teaches us less even if it's more likely. (And given Boeing's performance lately, "more likely" is in doubt too). > A good start would be de-orbiting the ISS ASAP - the final manned space flight should be to send somebody to the ISS with a chain saw. This is the sunk cost fallacy in reverse. Yes, you may question the costs of ISS decisions in the past but right now the ISS is doing real science at a reasonable cost as long as you ignore the massive number of dollars wasted in the past. That money is spent, we can't get them back. Even NASA agrees that it's not worth the money to refurbish the ISS but they're going to continue using it as long as they can without spending real money on it.
marcinzm 7y ago
PR matters because without PR people forget things exist or are worth spending money on. Without manned space flight I suspect you get roughly 36 hours before the first Senator proposes slashing NASA's budget.
unethical_ban 7y ago
You could have been better received if you didn't: * Use the pejorative "fanboi" * Propose a strawman that manned-spaceflight enthusiasts think it is all about entertainment Now that we have the rude parts out of the way: Yes, there were many conflicting priorities in various manned-spaceflight programs through US history. Yes, we have had many achievements due to researching human life in space. Yes, a long term (more than a presidency) goal should be sustainable human life on another rock. Yes, we can do both manned- and unmanned- space research simultaneously, if we can attempt to de-politicize it a little.
dang 7y ago
Please don't be an asshole on HN, even if you don't feel nostalgic for space travel. It helps no one and just makes the thread worse. We've had to ask you this kind of thing before. You've got some good points here, but in the future please express your good points thoughtfully. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and sticking to the rules when posting here, we'd be grateful.

jve 7y ago

Now think about when would we have GPS if there hasn't been rush to the space. It helps put todays (communication) satellites into space.

Mediterraneo10 7y ago
There were satellites before there was man in space, and still today communication and GPS satellites are launched without the need for a human being to position them. In fact, many communication satellites are launched from completely different infrastructure than the US or Russia’s manned-spacecraft sites.

mb_72 7y ago

> The US needs to adopt space policies that actually advance science and technology, not manned spaceflight just for feel-good PR shots. I would guess that your man-in-the-street can identify much more readily with another human doing 'something' in space than they can some 'robot', even if the latter might be more more productive. And what's wrong with some 'entertainment', not every aspect of life needs to be optimised and tuned for full productivity / efficiency.

TomMarius 7y ago
> not every aspect of life needs to be optimised and tuned for full productivity / efficiency. Eh, this what we're talking about is public money forcefully taken as taxes
- ben_w 7y ago
  One of the criticisms I keep hearing about NASA is that the very thing which made it good in the Space Race era has also been the milestone around its neck ever since — that it is structured as a pork barrel jobs program in each and every state. I have no way to tell how fair that claim is, but I’m sure someone here has either been into space or worked closely enough with NASA to comment. If that’s true, the “waste” is also the advertising that gets the funding for the things which matter. And that’s even ignoring the possibility that the manned missions do the things which can’t be automated.
  - TomMarius 7y ago
    I was talking about efficient usage of public money, not NASA
    - mb_72 7y ago
      NASA's budget is less than half of 1% of the USA total budget (2020 figures from Wikipedia). I daresay there are other areas (cough military spending cough) that would benefit from some examination as to where money can be saved through reduction / efficiencies. BTW I'm not American, but have followed NASA projects for many, many years, and they almost always give me some greater hope for the future of mankind (not to mention admiration for the science and engineering people behind the scenes).
      - TomMarius 7y ago
        Okay, but as I said, I did not talk about NASA at all. I was talking about making sure all public money is used for public benefit and not for entertainment as the OP suggested, because if you're taking money from someone with force "for their benefit", you better not waste it. I don't think what NASA does is wrong, btw. Not an American as well.

andrewl-hn 7y ago

I agree to almost all points, but de-orbiting ISS would be a waste. Dozens of astronauts go there (and to Mir before that) every year for decades, and yet every day their work time is packed with scientific experiments. Sure, some of that work could be done by automatic labs, but humans can do a lot of things machines still can't. So, it's a valuable source of data and knowledge that we wouldn't get otherwise. ISS is expected to function for another 10 years, and its lifetime is very likely to be extended further. Big part of ongoing expenses is transportation of materials and personnel, but it will be lowered over time due to competition.

dredmorbius 7y ago
I've suspected for a couple of decades now that the most significant science aboard the ISS is simply living in space. What are the impacts on individual human bodies, on equipment, crews, projects, international collaboration and cooperation. But mostly uman-body effects so far as I can make out. Transfer of which to terrestrial use is nonzero, but likely limited. I've periodically requested lists of acievements in other fields -- the supposed actual intent of the station. Answers have been ... vague. Nasa's own list: Space Station Research Goals, NASA Research: - Space Life and Physical Sciences - Research and Applications - Human Research Program - Science Mission Directorate - Advanced Exploration Systems - Space Technology Mission Directorate Similarly here: https://web.archive.org/web/20080123150641/http://pdlprod3.hosc.msfc.nasa.gov/A-fieldsresearch/index.html https://web.archive.org/web/20080123150641/http://pdlprod3.h... Astronomy, planetary science, reconnaissance, and communications seem to make up the lions share of the remainder.

kiba 7y ago

The problem is not manned space exploration. The problem is a lack of focus on making space exploration cheaper, and a lack of investment. Space Shuttle wasn't cheaper. It was ridiculously expensive, with designs decisions that shouldn't be made in the first place. If it was just a rocket that launched astronauts into space. That would be one thing. It's quite another to carry literal deadweight into space. Look at SpaceX's starship program. It's much more ambitious than anything we have on the drawing board. It isn't just another super heavy lift rocket, but a mass manufacturable reusable launch system. Everyone else is still thinking about how they will make reusuable rockets. Meanwhile, SpaceX is making their own game, playing on their own level. Manned flight isn't a burden. It has nothing to do with why we stagnated in rocket development. In fact, manned flight is the point of SpaceX, especially colonization.

Spooky23 7y ago
Space Shuttle was a system designed around classified military requirements that disappeared and left the civilian program holding the bag.
gibsonf1 7y ago
Can you image the government in charge of mobile phone design? The incredible innovation of Space X is primarily that it's a private company with accountability and incentives around it's customers, and of course run by someone who truly understands both the problem and the evolving technology.
- KozmoNau7 7y ago
  Can you imagine mobile devices that are not built to extract the maximum possible profit from the systematic exploitation of people's private data and attention spans, leading to political manipulation and instability, all to further fill the coffers of the global elite, who already own most of the world?

bryanlarsen 7y ago

I think that most space fanboys would agree with part of your argument. Just like the Shuttle did in the late 70's and 80's, Artemis and the Space Launch System are decimating NASA's budget to perform real science. It's particularly galling that NASA is giving Boeing $2B/launch whereas Elon is targeting $2M/launch for a similar capability. Few people believe he'll reach that target, but a miss on such an audacious target will get us far more than spending much more on something that teaches us less even if it's more likely. (And given Boeing's performance lately, "more likely" is in doubt too). > A good start would be de-orbiting the ISS ASAP - the final manned space flight should be to send somebody to the ISS with a chain saw. This is the sunk cost fallacy in reverse. Yes, you may question the costs of ISS decisions in the past but right now the ISS is doing real science at a reasonable cost as long as you ignore the massive number of dollars wasted in the past. That money is spent, we can't get them back. Even NASA agrees that it's not worth the money to refurbish the ISS but they're going to continue using it as long as they can without spending real money on it.

marcinzm 7y ago

PR matters because without PR people forget things exist or are worth spending money on. Without manned space flight I suspect you get roughly 36 hours before the first Senator proposes slashing NASA's budget.

unethical_ban 7y ago

You could have been better received if you didn't: * Use the pejorative "fanboi" * Propose a strawman that manned-spaceflight enthusiasts think it is all about entertainment Now that we have the rude parts out of the way: Yes, there were many conflicting priorities in various manned-spaceflight programs through US history. Yes, we have had many achievements due to researching human life in space. Yes, a long term (more than a presidency) goal should be sustainable human life on another rock. Yes, we can do both manned- and unmanned- space research simultaneously, if we can attempt to de-politicize it a little.

dang 7y ago

Please don't be an asshole on HN, even if you don't feel nostalgic for space travel. It helps no one and just makes the thread worse. We've had to ask you this kind of thing before. You've got some good points here, but in the future please express your good points thoughtfully. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and sticking to the rules when posting here, we'd be grateful.