5 ms·

Define viable. You mean a dwelling place that protects you from the elements well enough that they won't even be in the top 50 ways you'll be likely to die sta

by toolz 7y ago

Define viable. You mean a dwelling place that protects you from the elements well enough that they won't even be in the top 50 ways you'll be likely to die statistically? Homeless shelters take care of that and there are other options in between. As for businesses - I know plenty of multi-million dollar businesses that have no need for a brick and mortar, but the business angle isn't even an argument - there's never a need for anyone to create a business, there's only incentive and the incentive is high enough that people freely choose to pay rent for businesses that require a physical location.

monadic2 7y ago
> You mean a dwelling place that protects you from the elements well enough that they won't even be in the top 50 ways you'll be likely to die statistically? Homeless shelters take care of that and there are other options in between. Yikes.
nerdponx 7y ago
With all due respect, you have no idea what you're talking about.
- toolz 7y ago
  Ah yes, the newly established internet debater. Fully equipped with "that's a logical fallacy (that you didn't bother naming or explaining because you don't know what you're talking about)" into the standard polite ad hominem (which I will explain because I'm capable of doing so). You see, directing insults at the person rather than attacking their argument is an actual fallacy. Here, I'll even link you to some materials to study up on for your next meaningless argument. With all due respect, of course. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem Cheers and I hope you contribute something of substance next time.
  - nerdponx 7y ago
    It wasn't an ad hominem. I meant what I said literally. I respect you as a human being, but you don't seem to know what you're talking about. Do you want an explanation of why I believe you don't know what you're talking about? Okay, fine. Define viable. Let's go with "within financial means without incurring significant non-financial hardship". You mean a dwelling place that protects you from the elements well enough that they won't even be in the top 50 ways you'll be likely to die statistically? This is a ridiculous definition, and it almost doesn't make sense to respond to the rest of your post as a result. You want to start name-dropping debating fallacies? This one is called a "strawman".. Homeless shelters take care of that and there are other options in between. This might be wrong even under your absurd definition of a viable alternative to renting. In 2017, assault homicides were between the 20th and 7th most common way to die in the USA [0]. Violent assaults (although not necessarily resulting in death) are so common in NYC homeless shelters that the city restricted its definition of a "critical incident" in order to keep these numbers low [1]. There were 62,679 homeless people in shelters in January 2020 [2]. In 2017 and 2018, there were 675 critical incidents in homeless shelters; let's assume that's 337 a year, and let's assume that only 1/4 are violent crimes (the rest being drug and weapon possessions), meaning about 84 violent crimes in shelters a year. So that's 84 / 62,679 = around 0.13% violent crime rate in homeless shelters. The NYC population in January 2019 was around 8.3 million. There were 3,865 violent crimes in January 2019 [3]. So that was 3,865 / 8,300,000 = around 0.05% violent crime rate. So violent crimes, according to my back-of-the-envelope estimates, were 2.6 times more likely in homeless shelters than in the general population. And if we expand beyond just "death" as the only negative outcome, it's a general fact that homeless shelters can be just as dangerous as living in the street, if not moreso [4] [5] [6]. But let's expand into my definition of viable. If you know anything about a homeless shelter or homelessness, you know that being homeless in general, and living in a shelter specifically, does incur several forms of significant non-financial hardships. So, no, homeless shelters are not a viable alternative to renting an apartment. And the only way you can argue otherwise is if you don't know what you're talking about. As for businesses - I know plenty of multi-million dollar businesses that have no need for a brick and mortar, but the business angle isn't even an argument - there's never a need for anyone to create a business, there's only incentive and the incentive is high enough that people freely choose to pay rent for businesses that require a physical location. I'm not talking about multi-million dollar businesses. So let me clarify. Find me a deli, local drugstore, or local clothing store that doesn't need a storefront. The alternative is some kind of currently-nonexistent delivery-only society. Likewise, find me a wholesaler that doesn't need a warehouse. I don't even know how this would work. Maybe you can explain it to me; otherwise I have to conclude that you don't know what you're talking about. 0: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr68/nvsr68_06-508.pdf https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr68/nvsr68_06-508.pdf 1: https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/violence-redefined-nyc-homeless-shelters-keeping-stats-article-1.3826801 https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/violence-redefined-nyc-... 2: https://www.coalitionforthehomeless.org/basic-facts-about-homelessness-new-york-city/ https://www.coalitionforthehomeless.org/basic-facts-about-ho... 3: https://www1.nyc.gov/site/nypd/news/p0204a/nypd-citywide-crime-statistics-january-2020 https://www1.nyc.gov/site/nypd/news/p0204a/nypd-citywide-cri... 4: https://www.westword.com/news/reasons-why-denvers-homeless-sleep-outside-and-not-in-overnight-shelters-10987893 https://www.westword.com/news/reasons-why-denvers-homeless-s... 5: https://thecity.nyc/2019/11/nyc-homeless-shelter-chaos-drives-many-to-streets-and-subway.html https://thecity.nyc/2019/11/nyc-homeless-shelter-chaos-drive... 6: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/10/nyregion/homeless-shelter-stabbing-new-york.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/10/nyregion/homeless-shelter...
  - dang 7y ago
    Please don't respond to a bad comment by breaking the site guidelines yourself. That just makes the thread even worse. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- dang 7y ago
  Please don't post unsubstantive comments and/or attacks to HN, regardless of how little someone knows or you feel they know. It only makes the thread even worse. If you know more than others, share some of what you know so we can learn. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20share%20know%20learn&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... Alternatively, it's always an option not to post. Whatever you choose, please follow the site rules: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

by toolz 7y ago

monadic2 7y ago

> You mean a dwelling place that protects you from the elements well enough that they won't even be in the top 50 ways you'll be likely to die statistically? Homeless shelters take care of that and there are other options in between. Yikes.

nerdponx 7y ago

With all due respect, you have no idea what you're talking about.

toolz 7y ago
Ah yes, the newly established internet debater. Fully equipped with "that's a logical fallacy (that you didn't bother naming or explaining because you don't know what you're talking about)" into the standard polite ad hominem (which I will explain because I'm capable of doing so). You see, directing insults at the person rather than attacking their argument is an actual fallacy. Here, I'll even link you to some materials to study up on for your next meaningless argument. With all due respect, of course. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem Cheers and I hope you contribute something of substance next time.
- nerdponx 7y ago
  It wasn't an ad hominem. I meant what I said literally. I respect you as a human being, but you don't seem to know what you're talking about. Do you want an explanation of why I believe you don't know what you're talking about? Okay, fine. Define viable. Let's go with "within financial means without incurring significant non-financial hardship". You mean a dwelling place that protects you from the elements well enough that they won't even be in the top 50 ways you'll be likely to die statistically? This is a ridiculous definition, and it almost doesn't make sense to respond to the rest of your post as a result. You want to start name-dropping debating fallacies? This one is called a "strawman".. Homeless shelters take care of that and there are other options in between. This might be wrong even under your absurd definition of a viable alternative to renting. In 2017, assault homicides were between the 20th and 7th most common way to die in the USA [0]. Violent assaults (although not necessarily resulting in death) are so common in NYC homeless shelters that the city restricted its definition of a "critical incident" in order to keep these numbers low [1]. There were 62,679 homeless people in shelters in January 2020 [2]. In 2017 and 2018, there were 675 critical incidents in homeless shelters; let's assume that's 337 a year, and let's assume that only 1/4 are violent crimes (the rest being drug and weapon possessions), meaning about 84 violent crimes in shelters a year. So that's 84 / 62,679 = around 0.13% violent crime rate in homeless shelters. The NYC population in January 2019 was around 8.3 million. There were 3,865 violent crimes in January 2019 [3]. So that was 3,865 / 8,300,000 = around 0.05% violent crime rate. So violent crimes, according to my back-of-the-envelope estimates, were 2.6 times more likely in homeless shelters than in the general population. And if we expand beyond just "death" as the only negative outcome, it's a general fact that homeless shelters can be just as dangerous as living in the street, if not moreso [4] [5] [6]. But let's expand into my definition of viable. If you know anything about a homeless shelter or homelessness, you know that being homeless in general, and living in a shelter specifically, does incur several forms of significant non-financial hardships. So, no, homeless shelters are not a viable alternative to renting an apartment. And the only way you can argue otherwise is if you don't know what you're talking about. As for businesses - I know plenty of multi-million dollar businesses that have no need for a brick and mortar, but the business angle isn't even an argument - there's never a need for anyone to create a business, there's only incentive and the incentive is high enough that people freely choose to pay rent for businesses that require a physical location. I'm not talking about multi-million dollar businesses. So let me clarify. Find me a deli, local drugstore, or local clothing store that doesn't need a storefront. The alternative is some kind of currently-nonexistent delivery-only society. Likewise, find me a wholesaler that doesn't need a warehouse. I don't even know how this would work. Maybe you can explain it to me; otherwise I have to conclude that you don't know what you're talking about. 0: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr68/nvsr68_06-508.pdf https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr68/nvsr68_06-508.pdf 1: https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/violence-redefined-nyc-homeless-shelters-keeping-stats-article-1.3826801 https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/violence-redefined-nyc-... 2: https://www.coalitionforthehomeless.org/basic-facts-about-homelessness-new-york-city/ https://www.coalitionforthehomeless.org/basic-facts-about-ho... 3: https://www1.nyc.gov/site/nypd/news/p0204a/nypd-citywide-crime-statistics-january-2020 https://www1.nyc.gov/site/nypd/news/p0204a/nypd-citywide-cri... 4: https://www.westword.com/news/reasons-why-denvers-homeless-sleep-outside-and-not-in-overnight-shelters-10987893 https://www.westword.com/news/reasons-why-denvers-homeless-s... 5: https://thecity.nyc/2019/11/nyc-homeless-shelter-chaos-drives-many-to-streets-and-subway.html https://thecity.nyc/2019/11/nyc-homeless-shelter-chaos-drive... 6: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/10/nyregion/homeless-shelter-stabbing-new-york.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/10/nyregion/homeless-shelter...
- dang 7y ago
  Please don't respond to a bad comment by breaking the site guidelines yourself. That just makes the thread even worse. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
dang 7y ago
Please don't post unsubstantive comments and/or attacks to HN, regardless of how little someone knows or you feel they know. It only makes the thread even worse. If you know more than others, share some of what you know so we can learn. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20share%20know%20learn&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... Alternatively, it's always an option not to post. Whatever you choose, please follow the site rules: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html