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Well, I'm not sufficiently satisfied with my historical knowledge to hang around and argue this point with you, but I would point out that Moldbug defends it vi

Well, I'm not sufficiently satisfied with my historical knowledge to hang around and argue this point with you, but I would point out that Moldbug defends it vigorously. If you can't be arsed to wade through his lengthy mumblings, you can CTRL-F "The fundamental observation of colonialism is that non-European societies thrive under normal European administration, at least in comparison to their condition under native rule" in the above essay and read for a bit from there. His conclusion is that "...to assert that their average quality of government service was anything but far better than either their predecessors, or their successors, is a political distortion of history which I have no trouble at all in comparing to Holocaust denial."

jdp23 16y ago
Right. It's worked out soooo well for Native Americans here in the US. Except for the whole smallpox thing. And the reservations. And the massacres. And the Interior Department.
- fistofjohnwayne 16y ago
  Yes but now they have a better "average quality of government service."
  - shaddi 16y ago
    Most folks I know living on reservations would debate that. Just saying, it's a strong claim to make.
    - fistofjohnwayne 16y ago
      I was being facetious, I might have said, "sure the government service is great, if you survived."
      - protomyth 16y ago
        don't get sick after june http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31210909/ns/health-health_care/ http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31210909/ns/health-health_care/
- anamax 16y ago
  > Right. It's worked out soooo well for Native Americans here in the US. Except for the whole smallpox thing. And the reservations. And the massacres. And the Interior Department. The US didn't colonize NA land. We took it and "gave" them reservations, which we mostly ignore. They'd be better off as colonies or independent. As colonies, we'd care about getting a return on our investment. As independent, they'd benefit from whatever development that they did.
  - waterlesscloud 16y ago
    Only vaguely related, but I've heard it explained that the term "reservation" derives from the idea that it's land that the Indians "reserved" for themselves, rather than ceding in treaties. Now, that's of course a distortion of the forces at work that caused the so-called reservation of lands to be necessary, but there's also some contemporary value to Indian leaders in restoring that sense of meaning to the word today.
    - protomyth 16y ago
      Well, I can tell you that the land picked for reservations was not picked by the tribes. Mostly it is not the best or nicest. Some tribes got lucky because of what was discovered later. I would need a source cited who thinks this interpretation of the word would be good for a tribal leader.
      - waterlesscloud 16y ago
        The source cited is me. I think it would have value as a method of strengthening a sense of autonomy. There's a lot of difference in the idea of land someone else reserved for you vs land you reserved for yourself. The place where the land is will not be changing, but it's possible to change the perception of what that land represents, and thus the benefits of that land in a political sense.
        protomyth 16y ago
        That is not part of the history, nor is does it jive with some of the ongoing land claim. Changing wording and trying to convince people that something that didn't happen did does nothing except base your leadership and cause in a lie. Changing perception is only a good thing when it brings you closer to the truth of a situation, not clouds future decisions in more fog.
- krakensden 16y ago
  North America is a pretty unique case, in most places the locals weren't so completely wiped out (See: Africa, Asia). They also faired slightly better in South America (there are significant numbers of people of indigenous descent alive).
  - jdp23 16y ago
    see: Belgian Congo. East Timor. post-colonial Africa including Biafra and Rwanda. And even putting the genocides aside, look at South Africa under the Afrikaaners. Explain to me how this was a good thing for the colonized?
    - philwelch 16y ago
      In the long run, South Africa has done quite well.
    - deleted 16y ago
      [deleted]
    - krakensden 16y ago
      Those are all quite different from North America, in all cases, the indigenous people are still around and are going to be indefinitely. The Native American tribes are tiny, vastly outnumbered, and shrinking over time. The blog post that so outraged you argued that colonial administration was better than the post-colonial regime, so I'm not sure if you're engaging with that and missing, or just raging.
  - prawn 16y ago
    North America sounds pretty similar to Australia to me in that regard. Something that struck me both times I visited New Zealand was how strong and honestly respected Maori culture was. The Maori identity seemed to be much more positive and proud than the Aboriginal identity is in Australia. I'm not sure if we have an Australian equivalent of the Treaty of Waitangi (http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/politics/treaty/the-treaty-in-brief http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/politics/treaty/the-treaty-in-br...).

jdp23 16y ago

Right. It's worked out soooo well for Native Americans here in the US. Except for the whole smallpox thing. And the reservations. And the massacres. And the Interior Department.

fistofjohnwayne 16y ago
Yes but now they have a better "average quality of government service."
- shaddi 16y ago
  Most folks I know living on reservations would debate that. Just saying, it's a strong claim to make.
  - fistofjohnwayne 16y ago
    I was being facetious, I might have said, "sure the government service is great, if you survived."
    - protomyth 16y ago
      don't get sick after june http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31210909/ns/health-health_care/ http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31210909/ns/health-health_care/
anamax 16y ago
> Right. It's worked out soooo well for Native Americans here in the US. Except for the whole smallpox thing. And the reservations. And the massacres. And the Interior Department. The US didn't colonize NA land. We took it and "gave" them reservations, which we mostly ignore. They'd be better off as colonies or independent. As colonies, we'd care about getting a return on our investment. As independent, they'd benefit from whatever development that they did.
- waterlesscloud 16y ago
  Only vaguely related, but I've heard it explained that the term "reservation" derives from the idea that it's land that the Indians "reserved" for themselves, rather than ceding in treaties. Now, that's of course a distortion of the forces at work that caused the so-called reservation of lands to be necessary, but there's also some contemporary value to Indian leaders in restoring that sense of meaning to the word today.
  - protomyth 16y ago
    Well, I can tell you that the land picked for reservations was not picked by the tribes. Mostly it is not the best or nicest. Some tribes got lucky because of what was discovered later. I would need a source cited who thinks this interpretation of the word would be good for a tribal leader.
    - waterlesscloud 16y ago
      The source cited is me. I think it would have value as a method of strengthening a sense of autonomy. There's a lot of difference in the idea of land someone else reserved for you vs land you reserved for yourself. The place where the land is will not be changing, but it's possible to change the perception of what that land represents, and thus the benefits of that land in a political sense.
      - protomyth 16y ago
        That is not part of the history, nor is does it jive with some of the ongoing land claim. Changing wording and trying to convince people that something that didn't happen did does nothing except base your leadership and cause in a lie. Changing perception is only a good thing when it brings you closer to the truth of a situation, not clouds future decisions in more fog.
krakensden 16y ago
North America is a pretty unique case, in most places the locals weren't so completely wiped out (See: Africa, Asia). They also faired slightly better in South America (there are significant numbers of people of indigenous descent alive).
- jdp23 16y ago
  see: Belgian Congo. East Timor. post-colonial Africa including Biafra and Rwanda. And even putting the genocides aside, look at South Africa under the Afrikaaners. Explain to me how this was a good thing for the colonized?
  - philwelch 16y ago
    In the long run, South Africa has done quite well.
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
  - krakensden 16y ago
    Those are all quite different from North America, in all cases, the indigenous people are still around and are going to be indefinitely. The Native American tribes are tiny, vastly outnumbered, and shrinking over time. The blog post that so outraged you argued that colonial administration was better than the post-colonial regime, so I'm not sure if you're engaging with that and missing, or just raging.
- prawn 16y ago
  North America sounds pretty similar to Australia to me in that regard. Something that struck me both times I visited New Zealand was how strong and honestly respected Maori culture was. The Maori identity seemed to be much more positive and proud than the Aboriginal identity is in Australia. I'm not sure if we have an Australian equivalent of the Treaty of Waitangi (http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/politics/treaty/the-treaty-in-brief http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/politics/treaty/the-treaty-in-br...).