4 ms·

Agreed, that wouldn't be a very smart thing to do at all.

by yutyut 6y ago

nikofeyn 6y ago
yes, indeed. however, you'll note by the downvotes no one here wants to be reasonable. it's a trend i've noticed on hacker news. this site claims a lot to be unbiased and evidence based, but i have noticed when it comes to china, all reason floats out the window. it's a dangerous effect because there are actual problems that are exacerbated and confused by propaganda and unfounded claims from the other side, which also hides problems with the other side. it's just not good for anyone and creates a cess pool of misinformation.
- hoot 6y ago
  I've noticed this as well. Does China have any stake in HN that would allow them to sway discussions?
  - nikofeyn 6y ago
    i don't know regarding investments. but just to be clear, the trend i have noticed is a clear anti-chinese sentiment on hacker news. it comes up a lot. i think it's simply because a lot of americans are on hacker news, and there is a gross level of anti-chinese sentiment in the united states in general, probably more-so from educated people.
    - dang 6y ago
      Last I looked, about half of the HN community is in the US. Since that includes many expats, presumably less than half of HN users are American. An overwhelming majority are from Western countries though.
    - surge 6y ago
      It's anti-CCP sentiment, no one here is hating on HK, or Taiwan, or the ethnically Chinese diaspora, or even the average people in China. The HK protests were just last year and are still going. The 996 movement got a lot of notice and support here. Multiple articles have been posted here about pollution and the Uyghur re-education camps. Anyone well informed and educated are hyper aware of whats been going on in China from the environmental pollution, to Internet censorship, to civil liberties and human rights violations and they treatment of ethnic and religious minorities. You can't be principled and oppose these things in your own country, rail against an administration that does these things, and then give another country a free pass. They're currently kicking black people out in the streets out of their homes and giving them no where to go because of a ban on foreigners, even though those foreigners never left the country during the pandemic and are no more risk at spreading the disease than anyone else. It's racism, pure and simple. https://www.france24.com/en/20200411-if-you-re-black-you-can-t-go-out-africans-in-china-face-racism-in-covid-19-crackdown https://www.france24.com/en/20200411-if-you-re-black-you-can... https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/3079497/us-warns-african-americans-avoid-guangzhou-after-reports-black https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/3079497/us-w... I mean, many of the things we're seeing in China currently are the kind of things that were happening in Germany in the 30's that were warning signs. Just calling out things that are well documented in the news is enough to get down voted mysteriously, maybe the wǔmáo's have become aware of this community.
      - dang 6y ago
        Please don't use HN for nationalistic flamewar. Or ideological flamewar. Also in the site guidelines (https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html): please don't post insinuations about astroturfing to HN. The data is clear that this is almost always in the eye of the beholder, i.e. people imagine it as an explanation for things they dislike, and they're far more likely to notice those than other things. For a great deal of past explanation, see these links: https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix=true&page=0&query=by:dang%20astroturf https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme... https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20notice%20dislike&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
        surge 6y ago
        https://www.npr.org/2020/04/14/828565428/bloomberg-news-killed-investigation-fired-reporter-then-sought-to-silence-his-wi https://www.npr.org/2020/04/14/828565428/bloomberg-news-kill... I didn't realize such selectively enforced standards were a thing? Should I report any post that criticizes government actions for nationalism? So is criticizing a any government's actions in an comment section about an article criticizing the same government is nationalism? I didn't realize being in support of common human rights was a controversial ideology. I apologize for my actions and welcome the new mod community standards. I hope this statement will please current and potential YCombinator investors.
        dang 6y ago
        Everyone who feels passionately on a topic accuses us of selectively enforcing standards against them. That's the bias I linked to upthread. If you look at those examples, the pattern is quite plain. For example, if you held the opposite view you'd be accusing me of anti-China racism (people have done so) rather than pro-Communist shillage or whatever. Users who post thoughtful, substantive comments on either side of this issue don't run into problems with moderation. The point is that this is a site for curious conversation, not ideological or political battle. We can't have both, for the same reason you can't have a tank battle in a flower garden. I have zero idea what will please Y Combinator's investors. From my point of view, the only thing that matters is keeping Hacker News interesting, because that's what keeps the community thriving, and that's what's most in YC's interests. I realize that people have reason to be skeptical about such claims, but being able to run HN that way is why I'm willing to do this job. Most other places on the internet, this wouldn't be possible, because the site would need to make money directly (e.g. by selling ads) or to push growth at all costs, either of which would kill HN as we know it. HN is in a sweet spot that way, compared to how other sites of its kind need to operate. The reason is mostly a historical accident of how HN and YC grew up together, plus the fact that YC's business benefits more from HN being the way it is than it would from a different sort of community. The aren't many businesses in whose interest it would be to fund a site like this. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=by%3Adang%20yc%20business%20interests&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu... https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20curiosity%20optimiz&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
  - dang 6y ago
    No, and what you're all observing is the most routine of all phenomena on an internet forum when the topic is divisive. People make diametrically opposite interpretations of the exact same threads based on their pre-existing positions. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20notice%20dislike&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

Agreed, that wouldn't be a very smart thing to do at all.

by yutyut 6y ago

Agreed, that wouldn't be a very smart thing to do at all.

yes, indeed. however, you'll note by the downvotes no one here wants to be reasonable. it's a trend i've noticed on hacker news. this site claims a lot to be unbiased and evidence based, but i have noticed when it comes to china, all reason floats out the window. it's a dangerous effect because there are actual problems that are exacerbated and confused by propaganda and unfounded claims from the other side, which also hides problems with the other side. it's just not good for anyone and creates a cess pool of misinformation.

hoot 6y ago
I've noticed this as well. Does China have any stake in HN that would allow them to sway discussions?
- nikofeyn 6y ago
  i don't know regarding investments. but just to be clear, the trend i have noticed is a clear anti-chinese sentiment on hacker news. it comes up a lot. i think it's simply because a lot of americans are on hacker news, and there is a gross level of anti-chinese sentiment in the united states in general, probably more-so from educated people.
  - dang 6y ago
    Last I looked, about half of the HN community is in the US. Since that includes many expats, presumably less than half of HN users are American. An overwhelming majority are from Western countries though.
  - surge 6y ago
    It's anti-CCP sentiment, no one here is hating on HK, or Taiwan, or the ethnically Chinese diaspora, or even the average people in China. The HK protests were just last year and are still going. The 996 movement got a lot of notice and support here. Multiple articles have been posted here about pollution and the Uyghur re-education camps. Anyone well informed and educated are hyper aware of whats been going on in China from the environmental pollution, to Internet censorship, to civil liberties and human rights violations and they treatment of ethnic and religious minorities. You can't be principled and oppose these things in your own country, rail against an administration that does these things, and then give another country a free pass. They're currently kicking black people out in the streets out of their homes and giving them no where to go because of a ban on foreigners, even though those foreigners never left the country during the pandemic and are no more risk at spreading the disease than anyone else. It's racism, pure and simple. https://www.france24.com/en/20200411-if-you-re-black-you-can-t-go-out-africans-in-china-face-racism-in-covid-19-crackdown https://www.france24.com/en/20200411-if-you-re-black-you-can... https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/3079497/us-warns-african-americans-avoid-guangzhou-after-reports-black https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/3079497/us-w... I mean, many of the things we're seeing in China currently are the kind of things that were happening in Germany in the 30's that were warning signs. Just calling out things that are well documented in the news is enough to get down voted mysteriously, maybe the wǔmáo's have become aware of this community.
    - dang 6y ago
      Please don't use HN for nationalistic flamewar. Or ideological flamewar. Also in the site guidelines (https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html): please don't post insinuations about astroturfing to HN. The data is clear that this is almost always in the eye of the beholder, i.e. people imagine it as an explanation for things they dislike, and they're far more likely to notice those than other things. For a great deal of past explanation, see these links: https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix=true&page=0&query=by:dang%20astroturf https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme... https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20notice%20dislike&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      - surge 6y ago
        https://www.npr.org/2020/04/14/828565428/bloomberg-news-killed-investigation-fired-reporter-then-sought-to-silence-his-wi https://www.npr.org/2020/04/14/828565428/bloomberg-news-kill... I didn't realize such selectively enforced standards were a thing? Should I report any post that criticizes government actions for nationalism? So is criticizing a any government's actions in an comment section about an article criticizing the same government is nationalism? I didn't realize being in support of common human rights was a controversial ideology. I apologize for my actions and welcome the new mod community standards. I hope this statement will please current and potential YCombinator investors.
        dang 6y ago
        Everyone who feels passionately on a topic accuses us of selectively enforcing standards against them. That's the bias I linked to upthread. If you look at those examples, the pattern is quite plain. For example, if you held the opposite view you'd be accusing me of anti-China racism (people have done so) rather than pro-Communist shillage or whatever. Users who post thoughtful, substantive comments on either side of this issue don't run into problems with moderation. The point is that this is a site for curious conversation, not ideological or political battle. We can't have both, for the same reason you can't have a tank battle in a flower garden. I have zero idea what will please Y Combinator's investors. From my point of view, the only thing that matters is keeping Hacker News interesting, because that's what keeps the community thriving, and that's what's most in YC's interests. I realize that people have reason to be skeptical about such claims, but being able to run HN that way is why I'm willing to do this job. Most other places on the internet, this wouldn't be possible, because the site would need to make money directly (e.g. by selling ads) or to push growth at all costs, either of which would kill HN as we know it. HN is in a sweet spot that way, compared to how other sites of its kind need to operate. The reason is mostly a historical accident of how HN and YC grew up together, plus the fact that YC's business benefits more from HN being the way it is than it would from a different sort of community. The aren't many businesses in whose interest it would be to fund a site like this. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=by%3Adang%20yc%20business%20interests&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu... https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20curiosity%20optimiz&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
- dang 6y ago
  No, and what you're all observing is the most routine of all phenomena on an internet forum when the topic is divisive. People make diametrically opposite interpretations of the exact same threads based on their pre-existing positions. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20notice%20dislike&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...