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> What? That's not how evidence works. The onus is on the person making the claim to provide positive evidence. You might have had a point if the Chinese regim

> What? That's not how evidence works. The onus is on the person making the claim to provide positive evidence. You might have had a point if the Chinese regime wasn't putting it's propaganda machine into overdrive spewing conspiracy theories on how covid19 was created by the US to attack China.

YarickR2 7y ago
Right now US propaganda is in overdrive mode trying to lay the blame onto China ; there are no other views in mainstream media , and if anyone tries to doubt that, asking for evidence and reminding the world about presumption of innocence, they are instantly labeled chinese bots. So much for freedom of speech and thought
- papermachete 7y ago
  I'd like to remind people it's not just the US - Chinese test (and inhaler) suppliers being sued for highly unreliable (and some even pre-infected) equipment.
- rumanator 7y ago
  > trying to lay the blame onto China How exactly is the Chinese regime not to blame for this mess? Between the blatant cover-up and falsified reports and underreporting deaths by a couple of orders of magnitude and knowingly stating that the virus didn't spread when they knew full well it spread like wildfire and intentionally leaving out demostratedly infected but asymptomatic cases out of the statistics while simultaneously blaming new cases on infected foreigners, how is China's regime not to blame for this whole mess? And should we now just forget that the Chinese regime has been trying to pin the blame on their covid19 mess on Italy of all places?
- andromeduck 7y ago
  Presumption of innocence is a legal matter and this is not a court of law. It might be hard for you to understand but freedom of speech doesn't protect you from getting called out. Nay, it is the affirmative right to do so. It would also do you well to keep in mind that if we're using the criminal justice system as some standard obstruction of justice itself is a crime, as is destruction/tampering of evidence as well as witness tampering. Physical evidence is not required to convict; strong circumstantial evidence is often sufficent.
meowface 7y ago
They're always spewing propaganda about everything, though. How does that eliminate the need to provide evidence about a claim? Or are you just saying the best geopolitical response to unsubstantiated propaganda is more unsubstantiated propaganda volleyed right back at them? This is similar to people who accuse the CIA of orchestrating every big event or crime. They say they don't need to provide evidence, because the CIA is untrustworthy and tries to deceive people. But this is a completely bullshit argument.
- dependenttypes 7y ago
  > But this is a completely bullshit argument. Is it though? I think that it makes a lot of sense.
  - meowface 7y ago
    Yes, it is. Any argument akin to "I don't need to provide evidence of anything I accuse you of because you lie about things" is complete and utter bullshit. You would basically be just as bad and intellectually dishonest as the CIA, in that case. You always need evidence, regardless of the nature of the accused person or entity. You could be accusing Stalin himself; you still need evidence
    - rumanator 7y ago
      > Yes, it is. Any argument akin to "I don't need to provide evidence of anything I accuse you of because you lie about things" Either you didn't understood the point or you don't want to address it. The point is that if China's regime tries to portray the fact that they operate a coronsvirus military research lab a few meters from the outbreak's alledged epicenter as nonsense while at the same time they try to pin the blame on the outbreak on military coronsvirus research work conducted by other nations. I mean, if a work accident committed by China's military is ruled out as outlandish then why are they pushing conspiracy theories akin to area52 aliens as reasonable and plausible?
      - 7y ago
highmastdon 7y ago
I haven’t read any of the documents put forward by the Chinese government, but what if that’s the proof of them not making it and providing the negative proof, by showing who _did_ release the Corona virus?

YarickR2 7y ago

Right now US propaganda is in overdrive mode trying to lay the blame onto China ; there are no other views in mainstream media , and if anyone tries to doubt that, asking for evidence and reminding the world about presumption of innocence, they are instantly labeled chinese bots. So much for freedom of speech and thought

papermachete 7y ago
I'd like to remind people it's not just the US - Chinese test (and inhaler) suppliers being sued for highly unreliable (and some even pre-infected) equipment.
rumanator 7y ago
> trying to lay the blame onto China How exactly is the Chinese regime not to blame for this mess? Between the blatant cover-up and falsified reports and underreporting deaths by a couple of orders of magnitude and knowingly stating that the virus didn't spread when they knew full well it spread like wildfire and intentionally leaving out demostratedly infected but asymptomatic cases out of the statistics while simultaneously blaming new cases on infected foreigners, how is China's regime not to blame for this whole mess? And should we now just forget that the Chinese regime has been trying to pin the blame on their covid19 mess on Italy of all places?
andromeduck 7y ago
Presumption of innocence is a legal matter and this is not a court of law. It might be hard for you to understand but freedom of speech doesn't protect you from getting called out. Nay, it is the affirmative right to do so. It would also do you well to keep in mind that if we're using the criminal justice system as some standard obstruction of justice itself is a crime, as is destruction/tampering of evidence as well as witness tampering. Physical evidence is not required to convict; strong circumstantial evidence is often sufficent.

meowface 7y ago

They're always spewing propaganda about everything, though. How does that eliminate the need to provide evidence about a claim? Or are you just saying the best geopolitical response to unsubstantiated propaganda is more unsubstantiated propaganda volleyed right back at them? This is similar to people who accuse the CIA of orchestrating every big event or crime. They say they don't need to provide evidence, because the CIA is untrustworthy and tries to deceive people. But this is a completely bullshit argument.

dependenttypes 7y ago
> But this is a completely bullshit argument. Is it though? I think that it makes a lot of sense.
- meowface 7y ago
  Yes, it is. Any argument akin to "I don't need to provide evidence of anything I accuse you of because you lie about things" is complete and utter bullshit. You would basically be just as bad and intellectually dishonest as the CIA, in that case. You always need evidence, regardless of the nature of the accused person or entity. You could be accusing Stalin himself; you still need evidence
  - rumanator 7y ago
    > Yes, it is. Any argument akin to "I don't need to provide evidence of anything I accuse you of because you lie about things" Either you didn't understood the point or you don't want to address it. The point is that if China's regime tries to portray the fact that they operate a coronsvirus military research lab a few meters from the outbreak's alledged epicenter as nonsense while at the same time they try to pin the blame on the outbreak on military coronsvirus research work conducted by other nations. I mean, if a work accident committed by China's military is ruled out as outlandish then why are they pushing conspiracy theories akin to area52 aliens as reasonable and plausible?
    - 7y ago

highmastdon 7y ago

I haven’t read any of the documents put forward by the Chinese government, but what if that’s the proof of them not making it and providing the negative proof, by showing who _did_ release the Corona virus?