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The article talks about UBI meaning getting money "just for being alive". But in the actual source[1], Pope Francis says: > This may be the time to consider a

The article talks about UBI meaning getting money "just for being alive". But in the actual source[1], Pope Francis says: > This may be the time to consider a universal basic wage which would acknowledge and dignify the noble, essential tasks you carry out. It would ensure and concretely achieve the ideal, at once so human and so Christian, of no worker without rights. This is talking about a dignified, minimum living wage for doing the essential jobs humanity needs. [1] https://movimientospopulares.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/2020.04.06-Social-Mov.-Easter-ENG.pdf https://movimientospopulares.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/...

clarkevans 7y ago
Thanks for the link. It's an impressive sermon. Pope Francis says that "technocratic paradigms (whether state-centred or market-driven) are not enough to address this crisis or the other great problems affecting humankind." He's expressly talking to "you who are informal, working on your own or in the grassroots economy." I think Nathan's interpretation is correct, Pope Francis is not talking about raising the minimum wage, he's talking about a fundamental restructuring of our society.
ntnsndr 7y ago
Article author here. I don't get the sense that he's just talking about a living wage for marginal workers. That is a longstanding demand from the church, but the language here is different. To speak of "universal" and "basic" here is a clear nod to UBI of some sort, as are the references throughout to care work and activist work, which are never going to earn a wage in the labor market. +1 on the point about hedging against technocratic solutions, however. He expands on that language a lot in Laudato Si. I should have highlighted that in the article. Unlike many Silicon Valley UBI advocates, he does not see this as a simple, algorithmic fix, but his emphasis is on the way it could help bring about cultural change, transforming what kind of work we value and orienting the economy toward a recognition of universal human dignity. Will check back to chat more. Fun to see this show up in my HN feed!
- dredmorbius 7y ago
  NB: I'm getting intermittent cerst error on the domain. Working now, failed ~15 minutes ago.
- sdegutis 7y ago
  Oh I didn’t realize this is the same America Magazine which Fr. James Martin is “editor at large” of. I’ve been wanting to ask him about the many points at https://www.churchmilitant.com/main/generic/fr.-james-martin-sj https://www.churchmilitant.com/main/generic/fr.-james-martin... but haven’t found a way to contact him. They all seem valid and thus the magazine’s doctrinal position seems compromised, if it is in fact edited at the highest level by someone who dissents from immutable Catholic teachings. But I am a big fan of giving people a chance to explain or defend themselves, having many times been on the other side of misunderstandings myself.
- droithomme 7y ago
  His link to the actual letter of the Pope is very clear that he refers to laborers and wages and a Universal Basic Wage, not a Universal Basic Income given to all, including the idle. His criticism of your article is on point and warranted. Your response is not adequate, you merely restate your case that he has disproven using original documents. It's possible that the Pope also supports UBI for the idle. His letter here does not support that claim though.
  - sdegutis 7y ago
    > It's possible that the Pope also supports UBI for the idle. For the sick or those who otherwise can't work despite being willing to, sure. For those who willingly don't work, no. The Bible is super clear about this: "if a man does not work, let him not eat."
soperj 7y ago
Man, there will be some weird pro-life stances on people should start getting paid...

clarkevans 7y ago

Thanks for the link. It's an impressive sermon. Pope Francis says that "technocratic paradigms (whether state-centred or market-driven) are not enough to address this crisis or the other great problems affecting humankind." He's expressly talking to "you who are informal, working on your own or in the grassroots economy." I think Nathan's interpretation is correct, Pope Francis is not talking about raising the minimum wage, he's talking about a fundamental restructuring of our society.

ntnsndr 7y ago

Article author here. I don't get the sense that he's just talking about a living wage for marginal workers. That is a longstanding demand from the church, but the language here is different. To speak of "universal" and "basic" here is a clear nod to UBI of some sort, as are the references throughout to care work and activist work, which are never going to earn a wage in the labor market. +1 on the point about hedging against technocratic solutions, however. He expands on that language a lot in Laudato Si. I should have highlighted that in the article. Unlike many Silicon Valley UBI advocates, he does not see this as a simple, algorithmic fix, but his emphasis is on the way it could help bring about cultural change, transforming what kind of work we value and orienting the economy toward a recognition of universal human dignity. Will check back to chat more. Fun to see this show up in my HN feed!

dredmorbius 7y ago
NB: I'm getting intermittent cerst error on the domain. Working now, failed ~15 minutes ago.
sdegutis 7y ago
Oh I didn’t realize this is the same America Magazine which Fr. James Martin is “editor at large” of. I’ve been wanting to ask him about the many points at https://www.churchmilitant.com/main/generic/fr.-james-martin-sj https://www.churchmilitant.com/main/generic/fr.-james-martin... but haven’t found a way to contact him. They all seem valid and thus the magazine’s doctrinal position seems compromised, if it is in fact edited at the highest level by someone who dissents from immutable Catholic teachings. But I am a big fan of giving people a chance to explain or defend themselves, having many times been on the other side of misunderstandings myself.
droithomme 7y ago
His link to the actual letter of the Pope is very clear that he refers to laborers and wages and a Universal Basic Wage, not a Universal Basic Income given to all, including the idle. His criticism of your article is on point and warranted. Your response is not adequate, you merely restate your case that he has disproven using original documents. It's possible that the Pope also supports UBI for the idle. His letter here does not support that claim though.
- sdegutis 7y ago
  > It's possible that the Pope also supports UBI for the idle. For the sick or those who otherwise can't work despite being willing to, sure. For those who willingly don't work, no. The Bible is super clear about this: "if a man does not work, let him not eat."

soperj 7y ago

Man, there will be some weird pro-life stances on people should start getting paid...