9 ms·
Foxconn’s buildings in Wisconsin are still empty, one year later
- dpau 6y agoNot surprising. A great episode about this issue is on Reply All, worth listening to even now: #132 Negative Mount Pleasant DECEMBER 6, 2018 A small town in Wisconsin becomes the site of a completely unprecedented experiment. https://gimletmedia.com/shows/reply-all/wbhjwd https://gimletmedia.com/shows/reply-all/wbhjwd
- wyxuan 6y agoI was so angry listening to all those delusional council members who thought that suddenly their town could be silicon valley. Nothing wrong with thinking big, but to reasonably believe that you could start many multi billion dollar tech companies just with one plant is just loony. It left me at the end of the episode thinking, foxconn came in like a fox and conned everyone involved.
- cosmodisk 6y agoThere's a very good Russian film called The Twelve Chairs- an adaptation of a book with the same title.There,the main character, a professional con artist,ends up in a small town, in a middle of nowhere. In a matter of days,he convinces the entire town that because of chess games some of the residents often play,they could turn the town into the world capital of chess.They will host international tournaments, conferences,and etc.The Soviet government will build a rail link directly to Moscow and it will ultimately become a super city in no time. The film is 50 years old,but looks like the today's world hasn't changed that much...
- toomuchtodo 6y agoIs this the inspiration for the Simpson’s monorail episode?
- __david__ 6y agoNo, that was the very popular musical, The Music Man, which is a very similar story.
- toomuchtodo 6y agoThank you!
- cosmodisk 6y agoOh,the monorail! What a great episode. Nowadays they go around offering hyperloop technology to naïve city councillors..
- js2 6y agoI only know the Mel Brooks version: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Twelve_Chairs_(1970_film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Twelve_Chairs_(1970_film) But reading the wikipedia description of the book, it's the same premise: characters attempting to obtain jewelry hidden in a chair. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Twelve_Chairs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Twelve_Chairs Are you thinking of a different story? Edit: ah, apparently that's a part of the novel, which if it's in the Mel Brooks film, I don't recall: "bamboozling a village chess club with promises of an international tournament."
- cosmodisk 6y agoIt's the same story- I'll need to watch this version to compare the adaptations. The Russian adaptation is unique in a few ways: 1) I'm not sure how,but in times of heavy propaganda and censorship, these films got green light.The concepts they show were absolutely crazy at the time.I never really understood how soviet machine allowed this to be made to start with. 2) The film became an absolute cultural phenomenon that influenced generations. Some of the phrases used by lead characters continue to be used in wider context even today( I.e. "why do you need money? You've got no imagination!) https://youtu.be/P8t2dbJ7YXY https://youtu.be/P8t2dbJ7YXY (1:44:00 the scene where they arrive to the town of gullibles.There's English subtitles option)
- lonelappde 6y ago> attempting to obtain jewelry hidden in a chair. Is also the plot of the infamous eponymous Gaslight.
- lazyant 6y agoAnd yet a small Spanish town in the middle of nowhere was the world capital of chess for many years https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linares_International_Chess_Tournament https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linares_International_Chess_To...
- notRobot 6y agoTruly a great episode. Definitely recommended by me too.
- sschueller 6y agoThank you for posting this. It is unbelievable how dumb and corrupt some local governments are. Especially disturbing how heartless these people can be to their own town folk. This is like some 3rd world country local government kind of banana republic. Unbelievable.
- cosmodisk 6y agoCorruption works the same everywhere and America isn't an exception. Remember a film with Travolta,where he plays a lawyer trying to get this massive company on a hook for water poisoning. The very people living in the town and drinking the same water were the ones polluting it.Ffs, it's like I go to work, pour poison into a water well just to return home and open a tap to fill up a glass and then pass it on to my children. And all this for probably a few grand more a year.People are cheap
- mjburgess 6y agoCorruption isn't the same everywhere, and America is an exception in the western world (along with italy). It is partly caused by the (1) extreme levels of devolution; (2) politicisation of every level of public life (eg., even judges are elected); (3) barriers to removal of elected people from office. Kind of a perfect storm: elect everything, make being directly elected sacred, and nearly impossible to undo. In the UK almost everything is appointed, including the prime minister who is not directly elected to the office. The PM is then quite often removed from office, along with the whole class of unelected civil servants whose entire careers are spent working for the government regardless of who is in office. The huge levels of institutional professionalisation this allows basically makes corruption nearly impossible.
- nikkwong 6y agoWow. This story was mind blowing. I don't understand how a small town can borrow against a state's future tax earnings? Why are Wisconsin's taxpayers on the hook for the stupid mistakes of these council members? Also the story doesn't make this clear. How are the incentive payments made to Foxconn? I'm certain that it's not just a direct transfer of tax dollars from the city/state to Foxconn (?).
- CydeWeys 6y agoThe statewide officials were in on it too. Blame Scott Walker first and foremost, certainly more than any one individual at the town level.
- nikkwong 6y agoI can understand the naivete of Americans on the receiving end of this, like Walker or the president of the town for just being lured in by the idea "investment => profit". Foxconn however is obviously much more sophisticated and the story alludes to how manufacturing is cheaper in Asia; so the premise of why they'd invest in a plant here doesn't make much sense. Although it flirts with answering this question I still don't have a clear answer. It sounds like they received tax incentives, which, maybe were incentive enough for production demand that they at some point may have? It just doesn't make sense to me if they weren't planning on actually hiring 13,000 workers, what's the incentive? Tax breaks do you no good if you generate no revenue.
- clairity 6y ago> "I don't understand how a small town can borrow against a state's future tax earnings?" states are the canonical units of governance in the US. towns/cities have no budget or power on their own. that's all delegated from the state, analogous to allowing VP's access to their company's credit line. since it's (literally) a ward of the state, the responsibility for debts also fall on the state in cases of insolvency of the municipality. note that state and local muni bonds are the same thing--borrowing against a state's future tax earnings (often at great cost).
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- arcticfox 6y agoOne of my favorite episodes. I was so enraged. Outrage sells with me, it seems. By the way, anyone looking for a little fun follow up, a WordPress crash outed the owner of the A Better Mount Pleasant blog: https://www.wpr.org/sites/default/files/pfc_complaint_-_robert_stedman_may_2019.pdf https://www.wpr.org/sites/default/files/pfc_complaint_-_robe...
- asdff 6y agoThe verge can go ahead and write next years article about this, because at this rate, these will probably remain on the back burner.
- polote 6y agoI don't understand the point of the article, they are just saying that the building is empty and they are lying about it right ? But why should anyone cares ?
- macintux 6y agoFor the same reason it's worth writing articles about how taxpayers subsidizing sports stadiums is (almost?) never worth the ROI from a strictly financial standpoint: because people keeping fall for it, so it's useful to be able to have a body of evidence for the next time in hopes they won't fall for it again.
- frankbreetz 6y ago>>As part of the agreement, Foxconn was set to receive subsidies ranging from $3 billion to $4.8 billion (paid in increments if Foxconn met certain targets), which would be by far the largest subsidy ever given to a foreign firm in U.S. history. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn%27s_Wisconsin_plant https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn%27s_Wisconsin_plant Why should Americans cares how there tax dollars are spent, right?
- champagneben 6y ago>if Foxconn met certain targets Have they been met? Has it been a net negative from the taxpayers' standpoint?
- mburns 6y agohttps://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/09/foxconn-says-it-met-hiring-targets-in-wisconsin-now-it-wants-its-money.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/09/foxconn-says-it-met-hiring-t...
- kgermino 6y agoThere are two issues: 1. Foxconn claims that the targets have been met, but the empty buildings obviously make some petiole suspicious. 2. There was also a lot of subsidies and government spending based on the deal that is not tied to the targets. This was mostly at the local level (which __really__ can not afford it without the project going as expected) but the state had some too
- hn_throwaway_99 6y agoThis is good reporting. I think it's pretty obvious the sole (ok, maybe not sole, but certainly 90%+ purpose) of these "innovation centers" was political show, on both Foxconn's and the US politicians' side.
- 0n0n0m0uz 6y agoA lot of wasted time to write an in depth article. Let me make it easier. Like just about everything having to do with Trump, It’s a scam.
- rdxm 6y agoThe title should be: "Foxconn Runs Grift on Wisco GOP, Owns Them Like a Boss"... #justsayin....
- randyrand 6y agoWas foxconn given tax breaks only? Or did they also spend significant tax dollars? Its always odd to me when subsidies are advertised as a cost, i.e. lost tax revenue. That would mean not having Foxconn come to Wisconsin at all is also a cost, i.e. lost tax revenue. And that Foxconn also cost adjacent states a ton by not moving to them either. That seems odd to phrase it that way. Subsidies are not a cost. When I buy something at Target for 50% off, did I just cost them money? Doubtful. They're still making money. And its in Wisconsin's interest to make some money, rather than nothing.
- mburns 6y agoNo & yes, respectively. > In 2018, the Walker administration shifted up to $90 million in local road funding to road work related to the Foxconn factory.
- randyrand 6y agoThats a good data point. So it cost the state at least $90 million. I'm much more in favor of using these types of data points to determine cost, rather than the subsidy "cost".
- bilbo0s 6y agoThere's also a loan out to Mt Pleasant for roughly $750 Million. Wisconsin tax payers have to pay that back whether or not Foxconn actually does anything. It's a sunk cost at this point. The bank's gonna want their money back. (Though I'm not totally clear where all that money went.)
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- uxp100 6y agoSignificant tax dollars were spent by local municipalities. But that money was for infrastructure, not paid to the company or something. Mainly Mount Pleasant. In the state, it is popular to think of foxconn as scammers, but I don't think they have managed to get nearly as much as they could have, so uh, I have no idea what is going on. Foxconn does employee software folks at the milwaukee "innovation center." Doing what, not sure.
- RantyDave 6y ago"Foxconn has announced a giant glass dome that will house a data center" I'm hard pressed to think of a worse place to put a data centre than under a glass dome. The moon, perhaps?
- Ghjklov 6y agoYeah the moon would be terrible. Data literally just floats off into the void under zero gravity.
- thawaway1837 6y agoThe moon isn’t 0 gravity.
- Taek 6y agoThe moon would be very bad. No atmosphere = no heat dissipation. For thermal reasons alone, computing is a massive challenge in space.
- frankbreetz 6y agoI always thought it was weird that Wisconsin was a swing state. They seem like they would always be red, tons or manufacturing and farms, not a lot of big cities. But, it seems like Wisconsin Republicans are always making the national news for corruption, the Foxconn plant, allowing a vote in the middle of a pandemic for a minor Republican gain, and when Scott Walker lost his governor seat he removed a lot of power from the governor so, the Democrat coming in couldn't do as much. I know there are good and bad people on both sides, but Wisconsin Republicans have some work to do.
- analog31 6y agoWisconsin is a swing state for votes that can't be gerrymandered, i.e., the governor, US senate, and president. It's strongly republican for the two houses of the legislature and the state supreme court.
- hn_throwaway_99 6y agoYes, I read that 53% of voters voted for Democratic legislative candidates but Democrats only hold 36% of seats in the legislature. Republicans have discovered how to "hack" democracy. I think it's pretty clear both sides have engaged in some pretty egregious gerrymandering in different parts of the country, but only Republicans have become so hostile to allowing people to actually vote. And while both parties' positions on voter laws may be due to self-interest (marginal voters are more likely to vote Democratic, so barriers to voting are more likely to negatively affect Democrats) it doesn't really matter - the Republican position of things like shortening early voting, closing tons of polling places in spots like university towns, forcing a vote during a pandemic is bad for democracy.
- kyrieeschaton 6y agoThe core Wisconsin Democratic constituencies (blacks, public employees, and college students) are very concentrated geographically. Any reasonably compact districting is going to produce the same results.
- supernova87a 6y agoThere's an NPR podcast (I will try to recall a link) on how the local town / county government was willingly duped into being the gullible country folk who would agree to give Foxconn such huge subsidies for the promise of jobs. And how some more cautious citizens really fought against the secrecy being applied to the whole deal by the town council. Sometimes you have to have the self-awareness to ask yourself, here I am, a country-simple and inexperienced elected official, who's being presented with a huge fantasy of a deal (well beyond my order of magnitude experience), and being asked to keep this secret from the press and constituents. Is it likely that I'm such a good negotiator and master of finances and state incentives and my town is so special, that the huge company I'm dealing with (with dozens of analysts) is asking me to keep it secret because they're afraid of how they're getting screwed? Or maybe the other way around? Those town council members and mayor got taken for the ride of their lives by their gullibility and desire for national politicians to chalk up a headline, which of course, never materialized. Edit: oh, I see someone has just posted the Reply- all podcast link to that story, thanks!
- dec0dedab0de 6y agoIf someome asks you to keep a secret, that secret is a lie. -Jack Dahl
- asdf21 6y agoAre nuclear secrets lies?
- save_ferris 6y agoThis reminds me of the stories that come out regarding World Cup and Olympics bids, where countries spend exorbitant amounts of money to build to infrastructure to host the games, with the promise that the long term impact of the projects are positive, only to find much of the infrastructure abandoned after the event ends. Many of the Athens 2004 events sites are now popular “abandoned porn” spots.[0] I remember Brazil built huge stadiums for the World Cup and Olympics banking on their local teams moving into them, which wound up not happening because the teams didn’t like the lease terms. A $900M stadium became a bus garage[1] 0: https://www.theguardian.com/sport/gallery/2014/aug/13/abandoned-athens-olympic-2004-venues-10-years-on-in-pictures https://www.theguardian.com/sport/gallery/2014/aug/13/abando... 1: https://www.popularmechanics.com/adventure/sports/a15531/brazil-world-cup-stadium-is-a-bus-parking-lot/ https://www.popularmechanics.com/adventure/sports/a15531/bra...
- johnohara 6y agoAside from the politics, which really can't be left aside, I was under the impression the principal reason Mt. Pleasant was selected was due to its unfettered access to fresh water in the form of Lake Michigan. And also it's proximity to The Brat Stop on I-94. Not necessarily in that order.
- pureliquidhw 6y agoNot sure why you were down-voted. Access to water with no restrictions in a location dead center between Milwaukee and Chicago was the obvious play here. There was never an honest attempt to make a new silicon valley. They got land that in 20 years will be worth 10+x what the Union Grove taxpayers paid for it with reduced tax obligations. I'm sure the 100's of other businesses in that corridor would love similar tax breaks to what Uline, Amazon, and Foxconn have gotten. Also, Brat Stop is right there... for better or worse.
- johnohara 6y agoMe either. Thanks. To your point tho', Uline, Amazon, et.al. know the entire geographic location hits a major distribution sweet spot. There are many built-in advantages other than those offered by state and local government. Plus, many residents living between Milwaukee and the Illinois state line remember the huge impact American Motors had on family, friends, and neighbors. AMC, then Chrysler, workers had stand-on-your-feet jobs with good pay, good benefits, and good retirement. It was not an insignificant event when that plant closed 32 years ago. Every city council from Kenosha to Milwaukee knows the meaning of 13,000 manufacturing jobs firsthand.
- cobookman 6y agoIt’s events like these that make me believe a large government will always become corrupt. with smaller governments, ppl will focus their corruption on more lucrative organizations. And hopefully free market capitalism in such a system would be a check on the corruption.
- farazbabar 6y agoWhile there may be some naivety in this comment, I think it may be a better idea to address the issue or educate the folks that may not consider perils of unchecked capitalism to be a significant risk instead of just downvoting them.
- drawkbox 6y agoChinese style factories in the US are not going to work. See American Factory on Netflix. Factory work should be safe and no more than 8 hours as well established, maybe even less so there can be more jobs. If anything Chinese style management of production needs to care for workers more, even if products cost more. Innovations can be made other ways than making people into slaves that never see their family, live a life and have a quality of life at work and time away. Happier people are more productive workers and need less time to produce the same as crunched, overworked workers. Everyone in game development or engineering knows this. Just pressing the gas does not lead to the best results, an ebb and flow and research and development of mentally prepared, rested workers is key.
- m0zg 6y agoI've seen comments wrt this situation that there weren't any actual subsidies given to Foxconn. That was conditioned upon the plants actually being operational, and making stuff, which they, so far, have not. If true (which I bet it is - that's how I'd structure a deal like that), this would mean those country folks in Wisconsin are not as stupid as liberal media wants you to believe.
- dvduval 6y agoIf it appears there is enough space there for our Congress to sit together with social distancing.
- grafs50 6y agoI lived in Mount Pleasant, WI from 2005 to 2015, a few miles away from the Foxconn factory. Some of these comments are honestly extremely disappointing. * Mount Pleasant is not some backwards county where people are "country-simple" (?), most people live in urban/sububurban areas with farmland quickly being eaten up for new construction. Milwaukee is 30 minutes away. Chicago is just over an hour. * The economy of Mount Pleasant is not dying. Where you got that from is beyound me.
- JohnJamesRambo 6y agoFoxconn officials seem to be taking the Aristotelian view that nature abhors a vacuum and consider the fact that there is air in the buildings as good enough to be classified as "not empty."