7 ms·

> Quite a few years ago, Apple was one of the design leaders in the laptop space, then others caught up, more or less. The same thing happened in the smartphone

> Quite a few years ago, Apple was one of the design leaders in the laptop space, then others caught up, more or less. The same thing happened in the smartphone space. Who are these companies? Seriously. Have you used an Apple product side by side with a non Apple equivalent? Does any company come close to the build quality or original design of Apple? If other companies are almost catching up, it still means they are behind, and, worse, just riding on Apple's success without much idea of why they are successful.

stcredzero 16y ago
Who are these companies? Seriously. Have you used an Apple product side by side with a non Apple equivalent? Does any company come close to the build quality or original design of Apple? "Close" is a very subjective term. I like the looks of my coworker's phones sometimes. I haven't played with one for very long. I really love the design of my iPhone 4. Nothing else is as good from a tactile perspective, I'll grant you that. If other companies are almost catching up, it still means they are behind, and, worse, just riding on Apple's success without much idea of why they are successful. Or they have something of an idea, but they can't execute.
- dedward 16y ago
  can't execute yet..... it's only a matter of time. Apple has to keep moving forward.....
kgermino 16y ago
I can't speak for design, I know most people think that Thinkpads look ugly, however regarding build quality I own a Thinkpad T500 I bought 2 years ago and I have: +Dropped it way more times than I can count, usually while closed and turned off but also while it was running, and while it was open (both running and not). +Totally stood on it, putting my full weight on the closed lid many times. +Left it running in my closed backpack for almost an hour (twice). +Used it indoors and out during drizzle, snow, the height of summer and the low of winter, I even used it on a beach once. And through all of the above I never had any problems. The only issue I have ever had was when I was carrying it about 6 ft. off the ground while open and running (brilliant I know) and I dropped it onto a tile-on-concrete floor. That time the hard drive crashed but everything was perfectly fine. I don't know what kind of build quality Apple computers have but I'm going to guess that it can't be that much better.
- nkohari 16y ago
  It's not just build quality, it's also aesthetics. You say you can't speak for design, but that's what most people care about more than the ability to bounce their laptop off of concrete. That's why the average consumer isn't in the market for a Toughbook.
  - daten 16y ago
    What data are basing the opinions of "most people" and "average consumers" on?
    - jshen 16y ago
      consumer sales?
      - recoiledsnake 16y ago
        You mean around 17% to 20% ? That's 'most people' and the 'average consumer'?
        jshen 16y ago
        can you link to the numbers
      - ShaunK 16y ago
        Well then HP, Dell and Acer make the most beautiful laptops in the world.
        jshen 16y ago
        Are you including sales to businesses in those numbers?
        ShaunK 16y ago
        Yes probably. And in reality if you look at laptops > $1k it's not even close, Apple has 90% of that market. What that says to me though is that most people care more about cost than aesthetics. The point being that aesthetics isn't really the trump card that a lot of people think it is.
Keyframe 16y ago
Design, in this case, is mostly a matter of taste. Having said that, I prefer design of VAIOs over Apple Macbooks for example. Newer HPs are good too.
- recoiledsnake 16y ago
  Second that. Especially VAIOs like this http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?storeId=10151&langId=-1&catalogId=10551&categoryId=8198552921644649998&N=4294954789&Name=Signature%20Collection#/Bordeaux http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryD... Red Z/
- jonhohle 16y ago
  I'm talking less about the physical design and more about the functional design. Apple products are extremely minimalist as a design decision: only include what is necessary, allow the form of the device to reflect what is necessary and the material chosen that expose that functionality. I mean design from a "how things work" perspective, something more objective than just how the thing works. The designs of other companies appear to be aesthetic or functional primarily without regard for the other: design the look of the object and then fit as much functionality in as possible, or the opposite, get as much functionality as possible, and wrap it in some plastic. In either case there is little interaction between form and function, and often complete neglect between one or the other. And even in the great case where both are considered, say Sony's line of VAIOs (I formerly owned a VAIO desktop), the build quality is low, or semifunctional (opening the case on my VAIO was a pain). As others have noted, ThinkPad's may be the best counter example. They are extremely utilitarian. Their good looks, in my opinion, comes from their purely functional approach.
  - ghc 16y ago
    Sony's high end VAIO laptops have always surpassed Apple in build quality, and matched them in design, from the 505 to the R505, TZ and current Z series. I have a VAIO from 2002 that still runs well and the Z series is better than a macbook pro in pretty much every way except price (costing twice as much thanks to carbon fiber), while weighing as much as the macbook air 13". Now don't get me wrong, Apple makes some fantastic product, and Sony makes a ton of crap to go along with its gems, but Sony can still go toe to toe with the company its aesthetic sense inspired.
sorbus 16y ago
Asus has superior build quality to Apple (measured in failures within 3 years; Apple is around 17% and Asus is 15%, as I recall), lots of original designs (they started the netbook craze, and have a line of laptops made with bamboo), and they don't look half bad either. The U36Jc is completely comparable spec-wise to the 13-inch macbook pro, except for lacking an optical drive, while costing $200 less. It also has better graphics, a larger hard drive, better battery life, is thinner, and weighs about a pound less. So yes, there are companies that produce hardware comparable to Apple. They're just not as well known.
- Qz 16y ago
  I suspect this is more of a branding issue. Macbook Pro is a relatively memorable name; U36Jc took me longer to type than the rest of this sentence, let alone remember (I won't). Apple is better at being the original-design-brand, even if they're not the only brand doing awesome original design.
  - sorbus 16y ago
    You're entirely right. Oddly enough, though, this never occurred to me before, even though in retrospect it's ridiculously obvious. Always interesting when that happens.
  - mikepurvis 16y ago
    "I suspect this is more of a branding issue." It's a choice issue, too. If my next laptop is a MacBook, I know that I have basically one choice to make: how big I want the screen. If I'm a penny-pincher, I can check out the refurb section of the Apple Store, but in general, I really only have one choice. If I want to get an Asus, where do I even start? Screen size, resolution, weight, price, processor, presence or not of optical drive? How do today's models stack up against yesterday's? How much would I gain in price and trade off in performance by seeking out a store model or overstock one from six months ago?
    - jackvalentine 16y ago
      The following is a list of every ASUS laptop offering. This is far too many models. http://www.asus.com/AllProducts.aspx?PG_ID=1quIC6RvvlvcvNbn http://www.asus.com/AllProducts.aspx?PG_ID=1quIC6RvvlvcvNbn

stcredzero 16y ago

Who are these companies? Seriously. Have you used an Apple product side by side with a non Apple equivalent? Does any company come close to the build quality or original design of Apple? "Close" is a very subjective term. I like the looks of my coworker's phones sometimes. I haven't played with one for very long. I really love the design of my iPhone 4. Nothing else is as good from a tactile perspective, I'll grant you that. If other companies are almost catching up, it still means they are behind, and, worse, just riding on Apple's success without much idea of why they are successful. Or they have something of an idea, but they can't execute.

dedward 16y ago
can't execute yet..... it's only a matter of time. Apple has to keep moving forward.....

kgermino 16y ago

I can't speak for design, I know most people think that Thinkpads look ugly, however regarding build quality I own a Thinkpad T500 I bought 2 years ago and I have: +Dropped it way more times than I can count, usually while closed and turned off but also while it was running, and while it was open (both running and not). +Totally stood on it, putting my full weight on the closed lid many times. +Left it running in my closed backpack for almost an hour (twice). +Used it indoors and out during drizzle, snow, the height of summer and the low of winter, I even used it on a beach once. And through all of the above I never had any problems. The only issue I have ever had was when I was carrying it about 6 ft. off the ground while open and running (brilliant I know) and I dropped it onto a tile-on-concrete floor. That time the hard drive crashed but everything was perfectly fine. I don't know what kind of build quality Apple computers have but I'm going to guess that it can't be that much better.

nkohari 16y ago
It's not just build quality, it's also aesthetics. You say you can't speak for design, but that's what most people care about more than the ability to bounce their laptop off of concrete. That's why the average consumer isn't in the market for a Toughbook.
- daten 16y ago
  What data are basing the opinions of "most people" and "average consumers" on?
  - jshen 16y ago
    consumer sales?
    - recoiledsnake 16y ago
      You mean around 17% to 20% ? That's 'most people' and the 'average consumer'?
      - jshen 16y ago
        can you link to the numbers
    - ShaunK 16y ago
      Well then HP, Dell and Acer make the most beautiful laptops in the world.
      - jshen 16y ago
        Are you including sales to businesses in those numbers?
        ShaunK 16y ago
        Yes probably. And in reality if you look at laptops > $1k it's not even close, Apple has 90% of that market. What that says to me though is that most people care more about cost than aesthetics. The point being that aesthetics isn't really the trump card that a lot of people think it is.

Keyframe 16y ago

Design, in this case, is mostly a matter of taste. Having said that, I prefer design of VAIOs over Apple Macbooks for example. Newer HPs are good too.

recoiledsnake 16y ago
Second that. Especially VAIOs like this http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?storeId=10151&langId=-1&catalogId=10551&categoryId=8198552921644649998&N=4294954789&Name=Signature%20Collection#/Bordeaux http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryD... Red Z/
jonhohle 16y ago
I'm talking less about the physical design and more about the functional design. Apple products are extremely minimalist as a design decision: only include what is necessary, allow the form of the device to reflect what is necessary and the material chosen that expose that functionality. I mean design from a "how things work" perspective, something more objective than just how the thing works. The designs of other companies appear to be aesthetic or functional primarily without regard for the other: design the look of the object and then fit as much functionality in as possible, or the opposite, get as much functionality as possible, and wrap it in some plastic. In either case there is little interaction between form and function, and often complete neglect between one or the other. And even in the great case where both are considered, say Sony's line of VAIOs (I formerly owned a VAIO desktop), the build quality is low, or semifunctional (opening the case on my VAIO was a pain). As others have noted, ThinkPad's may be the best counter example. They are extremely utilitarian. Their good looks, in my opinion, comes from their purely functional approach.
- ghc 16y ago
  Sony's high end VAIO laptops have always surpassed Apple in build quality, and matched them in design, from the 505 to the R505, TZ and current Z series. I have a VAIO from 2002 that still runs well and the Z series is better than a macbook pro in pretty much every way except price (costing twice as much thanks to carbon fiber), while weighing as much as the macbook air 13". Now don't get me wrong, Apple makes some fantastic product, and Sony makes a ton of crap to go along with its gems, but Sony can still go toe to toe with the company its aesthetic sense inspired.

sorbus 16y ago

Asus has superior build quality to Apple (measured in failures within 3 years; Apple is around 17% and Asus is 15%, as I recall), lots of original designs (they started the netbook craze, and have a line of laptops made with bamboo), and they don't look half bad either. The U36Jc is completely comparable spec-wise to the 13-inch macbook pro, except for lacking an optical drive, while costing $200 less. It also has better graphics, a larger hard drive, better battery life, is thinner, and weighs about a pound less. So yes, there are companies that produce hardware comparable to Apple. They're just not as well known.

Qz 16y ago
I suspect this is more of a branding issue. Macbook Pro is a relatively memorable name; U36Jc took me longer to type than the rest of this sentence, let alone remember (I won't). Apple is better at being the original-design-brand, even if they're not the only brand doing awesome original design.
- sorbus 16y ago
  You're entirely right. Oddly enough, though, this never occurred to me before, even though in retrospect it's ridiculously obvious. Always interesting when that happens.
- mikepurvis 16y ago
  "I suspect this is more of a branding issue." It's a choice issue, too. If my next laptop is a MacBook, I know that I have basically one choice to make: how big I want the screen. If I'm a penny-pincher, I can check out the refurb section of the Apple Store, but in general, I really only have one choice. If I want to get an Asus, where do I even start? Screen size, resolution, weight, price, processor, presence or not of optical drive? How do today's models stack up against yesterday's? How much would I gain in price and trade off in performance by seeking out a store model or overstock one from six months ago?
  - jackvalentine 16y ago
    The following is a list of every ASUS laptop offering. This is far too many models. http://www.asus.com/AllProducts.aspx?PG_ID=1quIC6RvvlvcvNbn http://www.asus.com/AllProducts.aspx?PG_ID=1quIC6RvvlvcvNbn