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I agree that it seems negative and I'd rather he didn't do it, but I can see why he does. There are plenty of even less accurate commentators who are prepared t

I agree that it seems negative and I'd rather he didn't do it, but I can see why he does. There are plenty of even less accurate commentators who are prepared to make analyses of the situation that are unfavorable to Apple. Most people don't take the time to critically analyze the 'news' they hear and are actually influenced by this stuff. Apple needs to at least state their viewpoint so that it is out there alongside the criticism, and maybe it's better for it to come in this form than in their marketing materials.

martythemaniak 16y ago
Is it so hard for you fanboys to say something like "Lying is wrong and he shouldn't have done it" and just leave it at that? No bullshit, no qualifications, no Gruber-style excuses, just a simple condemnation of someone doing something wrong.
- swombat 16y ago
  Stay civil.
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
  - anonymous246 16y ago
    Stay truthful.
    - tvon 16y ago
      The truth is calling someone a "fanboy" is childish and virtually guaranteed to send the discussion in a bad direction.
      - nowarninglabel 16y ago
        What are we supposed to say? I don't think I'm the only one who is tired of what basically amounts to Apple marketing being posted constantly on HN (and sure maybe the rate of those posts is lower than sites like Techmeme but it's still quite high, see for example Ipad 2 posts http://www.google.com/search?q=site:news.ycombinator.com+%22ipad+2%22 http://www.google.com/search?q=site:news.ycombinator.com+%22... ) There has to be some way to identify this group of people, and say, look it's fine that you love Apple, but this is a place for in-depth discussions, not a place to show the latest shiny new trinket and 'ooh' and 'ahh' over its features.
        tptacek 16y ago
        As you have just demonstrated, it is perfectly possible to complain about the coverage Apple gets on HN without calling people names.
        burgerbrain 16y ago
        So are you going to answer his question? Since 'fanboys' is taboo or insulting, what are we supposed to collectively refer to these people as?
        nkurz 16y ago
        His particular question reads fine as "Is it so hard to" without referring to who feels that way. If he genuinely wanted a response, he could be inclusive with "Is it so hard for us to". "Fanboys" is not taboo, but is insulting and unlikely to obtain a friendly response. "Fans of Apple" is probably a better neutral term. But like the original author, I wonder if you are actually asking a question. Are you?
        rbarooah 16y ago
        Why do you need a term aside from for use in ad hominem attacks?
        burgerbrain 16y ago
- ascendant 16y ago
  Not everyone is a fanboy. Some people just have different opinions. Also, did Steve Jobs come to your house and kick your dog or something? Calm down.
- rbarooah 16y ago
  If you respond to something I actually wrote, I'll be happy to discuss it with you.
  - jongraehl 16y ago
    That was definitely a response to what you wrote. However, I don't think it's a fair to demand: "JUST condemn it, and offer no excuses." You're free to excuse if you like.
    - rbarooah 16y ago
      I didn't make excuses. I said it was negative and that I didn't like it. I attempted to explain why I thought he was doing it. I find it interesting to try to understand people's motivations rather than condemn them even if I dislike what they are doing.
      - alex_c 16y ago
        Isn't the motivation "they lie to sell more devices" - which is what your post seems to dance around, without outright saying it? Or am I oversimplifying?
        rbarooah 16y ago
        You're oversimplifying. The misquote of the Samsung executive is the only thing he said that might be dishonest. Unlike the original statement by Samsung that they sold 2 million devices. The fact is that executives in the industry make misleading statements all the time. These statements end up in headlines and do influence people. This is fact. Does this mean I like it? Of course not. Do I think it would be better if Jobs was a lot more careful to say things that are unimpeachably clean - very much so. I think they make these kinds of statements to try to counteract the kinds of falsehoods that others are making. Other than the Samsung quote, Jobs didn't lie. How is exaggerating the outrage and pretending that he did, any better than what he's accused of?
- jrockway 16y ago
  Apple is a religion. It's like when, 2000 years ago, some flood destroyed some town. They knew God caused floods, and they thought God liked everyone, so they came up with some bullshit like, "those people had impure thoughts". You have to "qualify it" or else everything you believe in is gone. Now, the stakes are lower for tablet PCs versus The Meaning Of Life, and we all know... the lower the stakes, the more people care. Now you understand why so much hot air is devoted to Apple vs. The World. The best reaction is to just laugh at the whole thing. They won't even tell you how much RAM the thing they want you to buy has. And you don't care, because you can't use it like a real computer. Wait, now I'm depressed.
  - jrockway 16y ago
    Wow, the Spanish Inquisition works quickly! Already down to -4!
    - rbarooah 16y ago
      I guess you weren't expecting that.
      - jrockway 16y ago
        Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition.
  - bad_user 16y ago
    I don't buy Apple products in general (with only one exception) and I think this presentation was of really poor taste, being in total agreement with the article. That said ... I have an iPhone 3GS and I couldn't care less that it has lower resolution, a 600 MHz processor and only 256 MB of RAM. I totally prefer it over any Android high-end device available right now, because it runs smoothly, it has all the apps that I need including a couple of cool games, upgrades have been smooth and I haven't had any problems with it. I don't like the iPad, I don't like their closed iTunes repository. But I really think more hardware / software companies should be focusing more on functionality, polish, user experience rather than technical specifications. And here I was hoping that at least one hardware company gets it. And yet I see them entering that same shitty game.
- ubernostrum 16y ago
  Is it so hard to accept that there are reasonable people in the world who disagree with you? Or is childish name-calling your way of dealing with that?
- jodrellblank 16y ago
  Is it so hard for you black and white moralists to say something like "companies interpret any data they can in the most favourable light they possibly can and it's up to you to work out what you want to know" instead of classifying the company you like's interpretation as "truth" and the company you dislike's interpretation as "lies"?
- tptacek 16y ago
  You've been here for 1,466 days, and you didn't realize that this might not be the way to move a debate forward on HN? Please try harder not to call people names.
  - martythemaniak 16y ago
    You know what really helps debate? Not lying and not defending liars.
    - rbarooah 16y ago
      So that justifies your abusive behavior?
      - martythemaniak 16y ago
        Yeah, because calling out someone's bullshit is now "abusive behaviour". Listen, people here aren't retarded - they don't need someone to try and explain why Jobs lied. He lied because he can make himself and Apple look better if he told the truth. It's the same reason most other people lie and it's so transparent a toddler can see through it. No one's gonna stop you from posting low quality Apple fluff, but don't expect not to get called out on it.
        tptacek 16y ago
        The problem with your comment is that it begs for a response in kind. The tone on the thread changes, from tendentious to outright hostile. Users click into threads and see high-ranked comments with that tone. They write their own comments like that. Oh, look. Now we're Reddit.
        extension 16y ago
        I think he used just the right amount of vitriol to best make his point. He's adding something valuable to the discussion and that's all that really matters to me. It's not tone that leads to Reddit, it's too many posters with too little to say.
recoiledsnake 16y ago
>Most people don't take the time to critically analyze the 'news' they hear and are actually influenced by this stuff. Err, I thought most of his presentation was targeted at exactly those people who will walk away with wrong impressions of the competition. Jobs knows that this presentation will be much more widely publicized than this criticism and that's why they wanted to do it. Seriously, how much percentage of the people who watched that slide containing the misquote of Samsung's exec would come to know it's a misquote? I would say 5% at the maximum. You seem to imply that it's better to spread lies and misinformation about some facts around because some analysts may do the same about different facts. I don't know how that computes.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
- rbarooah 16y ago
  I agree that the misquote was wrong. That's not what I'm referring to. That misquote doesn't change the rest of what he said, which wasn't wrong. More to the point, I'm not advocating him lying - I'm explaining why he needs to make statements about the competion at all.

martythemaniak 16y ago

Is it so hard for you fanboys to say something like "Lying is wrong and he shouldn't have done it" and just leave it at that? No bullshit, no qualifications, no Gruber-style excuses, just a simple condemnation of someone doing something wrong.

swombat 16y ago
Stay civil.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
- anonymous246 16y ago
  Stay truthful.
  - tvon 16y ago
    The truth is calling someone a "fanboy" is childish and virtually guaranteed to send the discussion in a bad direction.
    - nowarninglabel 16y ago
      What are we supposed to say? I don't think I'm the only one who is tired of what basically amounts to Apple marketing being posted constantly on HN (and sure maybe the rate of those posts is lower than sites like Techmeme but it's still quite high, see for example Ipad 2 posts http://www.google.com/search?q=site:news.ycombinator.com+%22ipad+2%22 http://www.google.com/search?q=site:news.ycombinator.com+%22... ) There has to be some way to identify this group of people, and say, look it's fine that you love Apple, but this is a place for in-depth discussions, not a place to show the latest shiny new trinket and 'ooh' and 'ahh' over its features.
      - tptacek 16y ago
        As you have just demonstrated, it is perfectly possible to complain about the coverage Apple gets on HN without calling people names.
        burgerbrain 16y ago
        So are you going to answer his question? Since 'fanboys' is taboo or insulting, what are we supposed to collectively refer to these people as?
        nkurz 16y ago
        His particular question reads fine as "Is it so hard to" without referring to who feels that way. If he genuinely wanted a response, he could be inclusive with "Is it so hard for us to". "Fanboys" is not taboo, but is insulting and unlikely to obtain a friendly response. "Fans of Apple" is probably a better neutral term. But like the original author, I wonder if you are actually asking a question. Are you?
        rbarooah 16y ago
        Why do you need a term aside from for use in ad hominem attacks?
        burgerbrain 16y ago
ascendant 16y ago
Not everyone is a fanboy. Some people just have different opinions. Also, did Steve Jobs come to your house and kick your dog or something? Calm down.
rbarooah 16y ago
If you respond to something I actually wrote, I'll be happy to discuss it with you.
- jongraehl 16y ago
  That was definitely a response to what you wrote. However, I don't think it's a fair to demand: "JUST condemn it, and offer no excuses." You're free to excuse if you like.
  - rbarooah 16y ago
    I didn't make excuses. I said it was negative and that I didn't like it. I attempted to explain why I thought he was doing it. I find it interesting to try to understand people's motivations rather than condemn them even if I dislike what they are doing.
    - alex_c 16y ago
      Isn't the motivation "they lie to sell more devices" - which is what your post seems to dance around, without outright saying it? Or am I oversimplifying?
      - rbarooah 16y ago
        You're oversimplifying. The misquote of the Samsung executive is the only thing he said that might be dishonest. Unlike the original statement by Samsung that they sold 2 million devices. The fact is that executives in the industry make misleading statements all the time. These statements end up in headlines and do influence people. This is fact. Does this mean I like it? Of course not. Do I think it would be better if Jobs was a lot more careful to say things that are unimpeachably clean - very much so. I think they make these kinds of statements to try to counteract the kinds of falsehoods that others are making. Other than the Samsung quote, Jobs didn't lie. How is exaggerating the outrage and pretending that he did, any better than what he's accused of?
jrockway 16y ago
Apple is a religion. It's like when, 2000 years ago, some flood destroyed some town. They knew God caused floods, and they thought God liked everyone, so they came up with some bullshit like, "those people had impure thoughts". You have to "qualify it" or else everything you believe in is gone. Now, the stakes are lower for tablet PCs versus The Meaning Of Life, and we all know... the lower the stakes, the more people care. Now you understand why so much hot air is devoted to Apple vs. The World. The best reaction is to just laugh at the whole thing. They won't even tell you how much RAM the thing they want you to buy has. And you don't care, because you can't use it like a real computer. Wait, now I'm depressed.
- jrockway 16y ago
  Wow, the Spanish Inquisition works quickly! Already down to -4!
  - rbarooah 16y ago
    I guess you weren't expecting that.
    - jrockway 16y ago
      Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition.
- bad_user 16y ago
  I don't buy Apple products in general (with only one exception) and I think this presentation was of really poor taste, being in total agreement with the article. That said ... I have an iPhone 3GS and I couldn't care less that it has lower resolution, a 600 MHz processor and only 256 MB of RAM. I totally prefer it over any Android high-end device available right now, because it runs smoothly, it has all the apps that I need including a couple of cool games, upgrades have been smooth and I haven't had any problems with it. I don't like the iPad, I don't like their closed iTunes repository. But I really think more hardware / software companies should be focusing more on functionality, polish, user experience rather than technical specifications. And here I was hoping that at least one hardware company gets it. And yet I see them entering that same shitty game.
ubernostrum 16y ago
Is it so hard to accept that there are reasonable people in the world who disagree with you? Or is childish name-calling your way of dealing with that?
jodrellblank 16y ago
Is it so hard for you black and white moralists to say something like "companies interpret any data they can in the most favourable light they possibly can and it's up to you to work out what you want to know" instead of classifying the company you like's interpretation as "truth" and the company you dislike's interpretation as "lies"?
tptacek 16y ago
You've been here for 1,466 days, and you didn't realize that this might not be the way to move a debate forward on HN? Please try harder not to call people names.
- martythemaniak 16y ago
  You know what really helps debate? Not lying and not defending liars.
  - rbarooah 16y ago
    So that justifies your abusive behavior?
    - martythemaniak 16y ago
      Yeah, because calling out someone's bullshit is now "abusive behaviour". Listen, people here aren't retarded - they don't need someone to try and explain why Jobs lied. He lied because he can make himself and Apple look better if he told the truth. It's the same reason most other people lie and it's so transparent a toddler can see through it. No one's gonna stop you from posting low quality Apple fluff, but don't expect not to get called out on it.
      - tptacek 16y ago
        The problem with your comment is that it begs for a response in kind. The tone on the thread changes, from tendentious to outright hostile. Users click into threads and see high-ranked comments with that tone. They write their own comments like that. Oh, look. Now we're Reddit.
        extension 16y ago
        I think he used just the right amount of vitriol to best make his point. He's adding something valuable to the discussion and that's all that really matters to me. It's not tone that leads to Reddit, it's too many posters with too little to say.

recoiledsnake 16y ago

>Most people don't take the time to critically analyze the 'news' they hear and are actually influenced by this stuff. Err, I thought most of his presentation was targeted at exactly those people who will walk away with wrong impressions of the competition. Jobs knows that this presentation will be much more widely publicized than this criticism and that's why they wanted to do it. Seriously, how much percentage of the people who watched that slide containing the misquote of Samsung's exec would come to know it's a misquote? I would say 5% at the maximum. You seem to imply that it's better to spread lies and misinformation about some facts around because some analysts may do the same about different facts. I don't know how that computes.

deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
rbarooah 16y ago
I agree that the misquote was wrong. That's not what I'm referring to. That misquote doesn't change the rest of what he said, which wasn't wrong. More to the point, I'm not advocating him lying - I'm explaining why he needs to make statements about the competion at all.