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I don't agree with this sentiment and I believe it's based on a big lie, but here's what some of the "average" Americans might think: "I'm an American, my ance

I don't agree with this sentiment and I believe it's based on a big lie, but here's what some of the "average" Americans might think: "I'm an American, my ancestors for generations have pioneered the frontier and could only rely on themselves. I don't like the idea of helping some lazy bum get their art degree on my dime, so I'm against free college. I'm a working man, and my son will be too, or he'll get a degree as an engineer or scientist and be able to make enough money to pay his loans. My daughter will get married and have babies. That's the way it's been and America has been awesome forever, so I don't see why we should follow Europe, who has so many countries in debt crisis that couldn't pull themselves up like America did."

redis_mlc 7y ago
It's not a big lie, it's more of an American frame of mind. What you described is called the "Just World" fallacy - you get what you deserve. Or a more modern term, "I got mine." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_hypothesis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_hypothesis The US founders, the Pilgrims, were (religious) puritans, and that mindset carries on until today. > you milk your youth Politicians and the oligarchy are very concerned about personal moral hazard, not so much about corporate moral hazard. So youth get non-dischargeable student debt, and companies get bailouts. (Since most bills are written by lobbyists, not elected officials, it would be very interesting to see who wrote that education bill.) How deep is the fear of personal moral hazard? There were bread riots and Washington, DC was occupied by rioters in the Great Depression after Washington refused to provide aid in case, "everybody would just stop farming." As Warren Buffett said, "[The war between the poor and rich in America is over. You lost.]" (Note that he is one of the few billionaires who has gone on record about this, because he knows there's a problem with 15% capital gains tax rate for investors like him, when employees like his secretary pay around 40%.) > you come out of your education and have 100k in debt. Oh, and it's 200k in school debt, and no health care. And buy a car if you want to get around. Rock on! More seriously, the US lacks a coherent policy on anything (healthcare, education, infrastructure, etc.) So it's an Oliver Twist-style existence for the bottom 99%. You can probably use this search filter to find intelligent discussion about US politics, "no policy" plus "US" and your favorite topic. This isn't a Trump problem, it's a "too many lawyers in Washington" problem. If you want to read astonishing truthfulness by politicians today, read anything by top Malaysian leader, Dr. Mahathir, or the investor Tan Teng Boo: https://www.thesundaily.my/business/foreigners-exremely-cautious-on-investing-in-malaysia-says-expert-YE2024771 https://www.thesundaily.my/business/foreigners-exremely-caut... How's that for transparency and honesty? Every conversation with those two is a roadmap for progress for their country. So it is possible.
nabla9 7y ago
This is basically agricultural era thinking peppered with laissez-faire ideology. In 1700-hundreads you could drop average household with some seeds and few tools into the forest and they would go on. If there was village around with 50-100 people their productivity would probably double. Connected to organized state and trade it might increase even more. Today >95% of the value from work comes from the infrastructure and society around people. Marginal improvements to aggregate education levels improve aggregate incomes and productivity. If your country has higher educated lazy bums than some other country, it creates value and wealth and you are freed to do marginally more demanding and valuable work for yourself. Getting even lazy bums go trough college can easily flip into net positive due to slightly better lifetime earning and health.
- battery_cowboy 7y ago
  There you go, they don't realize that they're already reliant on society, they think that they're doing it all themselves, it's peak narcissism.
- watwut 7y ago
  That being said, in 1700-hundreads they still depended on army. And the interdependence with other households was great too. The was reasons back then for people to bundle themselves into small cities - survival on you own would be quite hard.
  - battery_cowboy 7y ago
    That's the big lie: that there ever were more than a small handful of actual frontiersman, most people lived in civilization, but the people in power want you to believe you come from a long line of bootstrappers. In reality, we've all been interdependent for hundreds and thousands of years, being ground down by the elite.
  - nabla9 7y ago
    Another misconception is that free market is the default state in society. In the pre-industrial societies concept of 'fair price' in contrast to 'market price' was very important. Any attempt to increase or lower price to get advantage of distress of others was dealt by the community.

redis_mlc 7y ago

It's not a big lie, it's more of an American frame of mind. What you described is called the "Just World" fallacy - you get what you deserve. Or a more modern term, "I got mine." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_hypothesis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_hypothesis The US founders, the Pilgrims, were (religious) puritans, and that mindset carries on until today. > you milk your youth Politicians and the oligarchy are very concerned about personal moral hazard, not so much about corporate moral hazard. So youth get non-dischargeable student debt, and companies get bailouts. (Since most bills are written by lobbyists, not elected officials, it would be very interesting to see who wrote that education bill.) How deep is the fear of personal moral hazard? There were bread riots and Washington, DC was occupied by rioters in the Great Depression after Washington refused to provide aid in case, "everybody would just stop farming." As Warren Buffett said, "[The war between the poor and rich in America is over. You lost.]" (Note that he is one of the few billionaires who has gone on record about this, because he knows there's a problem with 15% capital gains tax rate for investors like him, when employees like his secretary pay around 40%.) > you come out of your education and have 100k in debt. Oh, and it's 200k in school debt, and no health care. And buy a car if you want to get around. Rock on! More seriously, the US lacks a coherent policy on anything (healthcare, education, infrastructure, etc.) So it's an Oliver Twist-style existence for the bottom 99%. You can probably use this search filter to find intelligent discussion about US politics, "no policy" plus "US" and your favorite topic. This isn't a Trump problem, it's a "too many lawyers in Washington" problem. If you want to read astonishing truthfulness by politicians today, read anything by top Malaysian leader, Dr. Mahathir, or the investor Tan Teng Boo: https://www.thesundaily.my/business/foreigners-exremely-cautious-on-investing-in-malaysia-says-expert-YE2024771 https://www.thesundaily.my/business/foreigners-exremely-caut... How's that for transparency and honesty? Every conversation with those two is a roadmap for progress for their country. So it is possible.

nabla9 7y ago

This is basically agricultural era thinking peppered with laissez-faire ideology. In 1700-hundreads you could drop average household with some seeds and few tools into the forest and they would go on. If there was village around with 50-100 people their productivity would probably double. Connected to organized state and trade it might increase even more. Today >95% of the value from work comes from the infrastructure and society around people. Marginal improvements to aggregate education levels improve aggregate incomes and productivity. If your country has higher educated lazy bums than some other country, it creates value and wealth and you are freed to do marginally more demanding and valuable work for yourself. Getting even lazy bums go trough college can easily flip into net positive due to slightly better lifetime earning and health.

battery_cowboy 7y ago
There you go, they don't realize that they're already reliant on society, they think that they're doing it all themselves, it's peak narcissism.
watwut 7y ago
That being said, in 1700-hundreads they still depended on army. And the interdependence with other households was great too. The was reasons back then for people to bundle themselves into small cities - survival on you own would be quite hard.
- battery_cowboy 7y ago
  That's the big lie: that there ever were more than a small handful of actual frontiersman, most people lived in civilization, but the people in power want you to believe you come from a long line of bootstrappers. In reality, we've all been interdependent for hundreds and thousands of years, being ground down by the elite.
- nabla9 7y ago
  Another misconception is that free market is the default state in society. In the pre-industrial societies concept of 'fair price' in contrast to 'market price' was very important. Any attempt to increase or lower price to get advantage of distress of others was dealt by the community.