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Completely agree. I'm not exactly an apple fanboy, but I do love my iPad, and there isn't yet a competitor's device I'd want to replace it with (although I'm ho

by corin_ 16y ago

Completely agree. I'm not exactly an apple fanboy, but I do love my iPad, and there isn't yet a competitor's device I'd want to replace it with (although I'm hoping BlackBerry's will change that). If he had come out and given all the ways that the iPad 2 is better than the iPad, I'd have been impressed. But spending half the time criticising competitors just came across as the kind of tacky tactic that really shouldn't be needed unless you're trying to catch up to them - not if you're trying to prevent them from catching up to you. Oh, and that's just for the attacking competitors. Going even further than that, and attacking them with incorrect spin, way too far.

darthg0d 16y ago
This has been happening for quite some time. One of the earnings call last year was more of Android-bashing than a talk about Apple's successes. EDIT: I believe it was Steve doing the talk back then too.
- stcredzero 16y ago
  I think this is a sign that they're running scared a lot more than they're letting on. It's only a matter of time before the iPad style tablet becomes commoditized. Quite a few years ago, Apple was one of the design leaders in the laptop space, then others caught up, more or less. The same thing happened in the smartphone space. The same thing will happen to tablets. In a way, they are subject to the same forces that Nokia is desperately trying to escape, except Apple has been smart and positioned themselves on the forefront of each wave, where it will lift them up. Nokia rode their wave too long. Will Apple become a victim of their own success? Yes. For the record, though, I think Steve Job's "reality distortion field" is sometimes actually an anti-distortion field. I think the consensus reality has some significant distortions, which he's good at seeing through. Then again, everyone who isn't Steve might have a hard time knowing which polarity the field is set to at any given moment.
  - jonhohle 16y ago
    > Quite a few years ago, Apple was one of the design leaders in the laptop space, then others caught up, more or less. The same thing happened in the smartphone space. Who are these companies? Seriously. Have you used an Apple product side by side with a non Apple equivalent? Does any company come close to the build quality or original design of Apple? If other companies are almost catching up, it still means they are behind, and, worse, just riding on Apple's success without much idea of why they are successful.
    - stcredzero 16y ago
      Who are these companies? Seriously. Have you used an Apple product side by side with a non Apple equivalent? Does any company come close to the build quality or original design of Apple? "Close" is a very subjective term. I like the looks of my coworker's phones sometimes. I haven't played with one for very long. I really love the design of my iPhone 4. Nothing else is as good from a tactile perspective, I'll grant you that. If other companies are almost catching up, it still means they are behind, and, worse, just riding on Apple's success without much idea of why they are successful. Or they have something of an idea, but they can't execute.
      - dedward 16y ago
        can't execute yet..... it's only a matter of time. Apple has to keep moving forward.....
    - kgermino 16y ago
      I can't speak for design, I know most people think that Thinkpads look ugly, however regarding build quality I own a Thinkpad T500 I bought 2 years ago and I have: +Dropped it way more times than I can count, usually while closed and turned off but also while it was running, and while it was open (both running and not). +Totally stood on it, putting my full weight on the closed lid many times. +Left it running in my closed backpack for almost an hour (twice). +Used it indoors and out during drizzle, snow, the height of summer and the low of winter, I even used it on a beach once. And through all of the above I never had any problems. The only issue I have ever had was when I was carrying it about 6 ft. off the ground while open and running (brilliant I know) and I dropped it onto a tile-on-concrete floor. That time the hard drive crashed but everything was perfectly fine. I don't know what kind of build quality Apple computers have but I'm going to guess that it can't be that much better.
  - irons 16y ago
    It's only a matter of time before the iPad style tablet becomes commoditized. Quite a few years ago, Apple was one of the design leaders in the laptop space, then others caught up, more or less. The same thing happened in the smartphone space. The same thing will happen to tablets. For sure! Oh, wait, I meant PlaysForSure. I wish I thought you were right, because I think it would be much better for Apple in the long term to have credible competition. I see none, and pretty clearly Apple sees none, or their subscription-revenue plan wouldn't have seen the light of day.
  - 6ren 16y ago
    Totally agree. Let's not forget the PC - invented by Apple, now it means non-Apple. No one caught up with the iPod; Apple rode that wave fully, by mercilessly improving and price-cutting it; then subsuming/cannibalizing it with the iPhone/Touch. They will ruthlessly brutalize their current babies too. When the iPad was launched, there was no talk of competitors. Today, most of the news is about competitors. It's necessary for Steve to trash them. And to be clear: the iPad 2 specs actually do trash them. Big question: what's the next wave for Apple? I think it will be smart phones as a desktop/laptop replacement (you dock at home/work). Maybe a nano-sized smartphone replacement (or even smaller), for the next form-factor. PS: The Kindle will disrupt the iPad: it has a far cheaper yet more profitable business model; when the iPad becomes more powerful than it needs to be, the Kindle will be powerful enough.
    - jasonlotito 16y ago
      It's not the devices. The iPod didn't succeed because of the iPod. The iPhone was woefully inadequate when it was launched. The iPad succeeded because of everything that had come before it. * iTunes * The Apple Retail Store * iOS App Store * Now the Mac App Store * Apple TV Don't get me wrong, the devices are great. They look nice, the work well. I love my iPhone, my iMac, MBP, iPad, Apple TV. The Airport Extreme is a wonderful wireless router. But alone, any of these products are okay (except the AE, it's worth it). It's everything around them that matters. That's why I agree with you on the Kindle, though it won't disrupt the iPad. I love my Kindle, but it's used for a different reason than the iPad. But the Kindle does what it does well, and everything it connects to is top notch. I'm not really disagreeing with you. However, it's not the product, it's everything beyond the product that really made Apple successful. As for what's next: Removing the computer from the screen. I've been saying it for a LONG time here. I really think Apple is moving toward a server -> client model. You'll buy a computer for the house, a really powerful beast, something you put in the corner. Everyone connects to it using their iPads, monitors, Airs, iPhones. Your session remains the same regardless of the device. Everything is pointing to this.
  - blrgeek 16y ago
    This is probably Apple having trouble adjusting their world-view. With the iPhone & iPad, Apple might have expected a level of success and market-share equal to the iPod. And without Android, they might well have gotten there! But with Android, Apple is looking at a market more like Desktop OS, than iPod.
- davidedicillo 16y ago
  While Google wasn't bashing Apple at all at Google I/O...
- jsz0 16y ago
  That's how it was reported but if you listen to the actual call it was about 1-2 minutes squarely aimed at the Samsung Galaxy Tab which had just been released.
rbarooah 16y ago
I agree that it seems negative and I'd rather he didn't do it, but I can see why he does. There are plenty of even less accurate commentators who are prepared to make analyses of the situation that are unfavorable to Apple. Most people don't take the time to critically analyze the 'news' they hear and are actually influenced by this stuff. Apple needs to at least state their viewpoint so that it is out there alongside the criticism, and maybe it's better for it to come in this form than in their marketing materials.
- martythemaniak 16y ago
  Is it so hard for you fanboys to say something like "Lying is wrong and he shouldn't have done it" and just leave it at that? No bullshit, no qualifications, no Gruber-style excuses, just a simple condemnation of someone doing something wrong.
  - swombat 16y ago
    Stay civil.
    - deleted 16y ago
      [deleted]
    - anonymous246 16y ago
      Stay truthful.
      - tvon 16y ago
        The truth is calling someone a "fanboy" is childish and virtually guaranteed to send the discussion in a bad direction.
        nowarninglabel 16y ago
        What are we supposed to say? I don't think I'm the only one who is tired of what basically amounts to Apple marketing being posted constantly on HN (and sure maybe the rate of those posts is lower than sites like Techmeme but it's still quite high, see for example Ipad 2 posts http://www.google.com/search?q=site:news.ycombinator.com+%22ipad+2%22 http://www.google.com/search?q=site:news.ycombinator.com+%22... ) There has to be some way to identify this group of people, and say, look it's fine that you love Apple, but this is a place for in-depth discussions, not a place to show the latest shiny new trinket and 'ooh' and 'ahh' over its features.
niels_olson 16y ago
I actually see his assertiveness as a sign of how much Jobs respects the potential of his competitors and the ruthlessness with which the market will walk away from his company's products if he doesn't sell, and just how much obligation he has to employees who sacrifice so much to make it look like magic.
- billmcneale 16y ago
  You have a strange definition of "respect". Maybe behind closed doors and in board meetings, Jobs will admit that Android is a very fierce competitor that is taking market share away from Apple. But on the public front, he shows nothing but disdain for competitors and he spends much more time on stage disparaging them than he used to. Bashing competitors is not just poor form, it's usually the sign of a business losing steam.
  - rbarooah 16y ago
    By that measure, all of the major players are losing steam.
    - Sakes 16y ago
      I think he means that when a company switches from ignoring competitors to acknowledging them by ridiculing them, then they are not as far ahead as they used to be. So it does imply losing steam in this case. Phases: 1) Ignore 2) Ridicule 3) Fight 4) Lose If a company was in phase 2 last year, and phase 2 this year they are not losing steam. A company is losing steam when it moves down the above phase ladder.
      - rbarooah 16y ago
        Nice. That should be a mechanic in the Hacker News board game. "Ridicule Competition: Your CEO is losing confidence but is unaware of it. Lose 3 steam points and miss your next turn."
    - Silhouette 16y ago
fluidcruft 16y ago
Allow me to appropriate a quotation from a person who's legacy Apple has had no shame appropriating for marketing: "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." This was plainly an exercise in ridicule by Jobs.
- tvon 16y ago
  Of course you realize how easy it is to apply that quote to completely absurd things, e.g. the Flat Earth Society or pretty much anyone who has reached the ridicule stage. It gets significantly harder as you go along (ignored, ridiculed, fought, victory), and the first two are relatively easy... It's basically a rallying cry for the severe underdog (which I don't think Android is in this case).
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
  - fluidcruft 16y ago
    It's also about how power behaves when threatened (which I think does describe Android's relationship to Apple).
- rbarooah 16y ago
  I seem to recall the iPad being pretty roundly ridiculed as 'just a big iPod touch' no USB, no flash, etc. etc, and I hear plenty of ridicule from the Xoom crowd. What's the rule in this situation? Does the one who ridicules first lose, or the one who ridicules the most?
  - fluidcruft 16y ago
    It about how power behaves when threatened. The iPad was a challenge to the dominant netbook model. The Xoom crowd isn't at the top, but android is surging, so they're just noise at this point. Apple's at the top. That's the key difference. Ridiculing Android means that it's progressed to the point that they can't ignore them.
- 16y ago
evo_9 16y ago
Yeah God forbid Apple conducts business like Microsoft and everyone else. I know we hold Apple to a higher moral standard for some reason, but come on, when has Jobs ever held back what he thought of his competitors? I do agree the misquote was silly and unnecessary. I wonder if Jobs himself personally knew it was a complete deception or did he rely on fact checkers and speech writers to do his due diligence and simply wasn't aware the quote was wrong.
- corin_ 16y ago
  It's nothing about holding Apple to any higher standards, I made exactly the same comment about RIM a couple of months back, and in that instance all they were doing was putting their rivals down, not making up shit. And I'm a huge RIM fanboy.

by corin_ 16y ago

darthg0d 16y ago

This has been happening for quite some time. One of the earnings call last year was more of Android-bashing than a talk about Apple's successes. EDIT: I believe it was Steve doing the talk back then too.

stcredzero 16y ago
I think this is a sign that they're running scared a lot more than they're letting on. It's only a matter of time before the iPad style tablet becomes commoditized. Quite a few years ago, Apple was one of the design leaders in the laptop space, then others caught up, more or less. The same thing happened in the smartphone space. The same thing will happen to tablets. In a way, they are subject to the same forces that Nokia is desperately trying to escape, except Apple has been smart and positioned themselves on the forefront of each wave, where it will lift them up. Nokia rode their wave too long. Will Apple become a victim of their own success? Yes. For the record, though, I think Steve Job's "reality distortion field" is sometimes actually an anti-distortion field. I think the consensus reality has some significant distortions, which he's good at seeing through. Then again, everyone who isn't Steve might have a hard time knowing which polarity the field is set to at any given moment.
- jonhohle 16y ago
  > Quite a few years ago, Apple was one of the design leaders in the laptop space, then others caught up, more or less. The same thing happened in the smartphone space. Who are these companies? Seriously. Have you used an Apple product side by side with a non Apple equivalent? Does any company come close to the build quality or original design of Apple? If other companies are almost catching up, it still means they are behind, and, worse, just riding on Apple's success without much idea of why they are successful.
  - stcredzero 16y ago
    Who are these companies? Seriously. Have you used an Apple product side by side with a non Apple equivalent? Does any company come close to the build quality or original design of Apple? "Close" is a very subjective term. I like the looks of my coworker's phones sometimes. I haven't played with one for very long. I really love the design of my iPhone 4. Nothing else is as good from a tactile perspective, I'll grant you that. If other companies are almost catching up, it still means they are behind, and, worse, just riding on Apple's success without much idea of why they are successful. Or they have something of an idea, but they can't execute.
    - dedward 16y ago
      can't execute yet..... it's only a matter of time. Apple has to keep moving forward.....
  - kgermino 16y ago
    I can't speak for design, I know most people think that Thinkpads look ugly, however regarding build quality I own a Thinkpad T500 I bought 2 years ago and I have: +Dropped it way more times than I can count, usually while closed and turned off but also while it was running, and while it was open (both running and not). +Totally stood on it, putting my full weight on the closed lid many times. +Left it running in my closed backpack for almost an hour (twice). +Used it indoors and out during drizzle, snow, the height of summer and the low of winter, I even used it on a beach once. And through all of the above I never had any problems. The only issue I have ever had was when I was carrying it about 6 ft. off the ground while open and running (brilliant I know) and I dropped it onto a tile-on-concrete floor. That time the hard drive crashed but everything was perfectly fine. I don't know what kind of build quality Apple computers have but I'm going to guess that it can't be that much better.
- irons 16y ago
  It's only a matter of time before the iPad style tablet becomes commoditized. Quite a few years ago, Apple was one of the design leaders in the laptop space, then others caught up, more or less. The same thing happened in the smartphone space. The same thing will happen to tablets. For sure! Oh, wait, I meant PlaysForSure. I wish I thought you were right, because I think it would be much better for Apple in the long term to have credible competition. I see none, and pretty clearly Apple sees none, or their subscription-revenue plan wouldn't have seen the light of day.
- 6ren 16y ago
  Totally agree. Let's not forget the PC - invented by Apple, now it means non-Apple. No one caught up with the iPod; Apple rode that wave fully, by mercilessly improving and price-cutting it; then subsuming/cannibalizing it with the iPhone/Touch. They will ruthlessly brutalize their current babies too. When the iPad was launched, there was no talk of competitors. Today, most of the news is about competitors. It's necessary for Steve to trash them. And to be clear: the iPad 2 specs actually do trash them. Big question: what's the next wave for Apple? I think it will be smart phones as a desktop/laptop replacement (you dock at home/work). Maybe a nano-sized smartphone replacement (or even smaller), for the next form-factor. PS: The Kindle will disrupt the iPad: it has a far cheaper yet more profitable business model; when the iPad becomes more powerful than it needs to be, the Kindle will be powerful enough.
  - jasonlotito 16y ago
    It's not the devices. The iPod didn't succeed because of the iPod. The iPhone was woefully inadequate when it was launched. The iPad succeeded because of everything that had come before it. * iTunes * The Apple Retail Store * iOS App Store * Now the Mac App Store * Apple TV Don't get me wrong, the devices are great. They look nice, the work well. I love my iPhone, my iMac, MBP, iPad, Apple TV. The Airport Extreme is a wonderful wireless router. But alone, any of these products are okay (except the AE, it's worth it). It's everything around them that matters. That's why I agree with you on the Kindle, though it won't disrupt the iPad. I love my Kindle, but it's used for a different reason than the iPad. But the Kindle does what it does well, and everything it connects to is top notch. I'm not really disagreeing with you. However, it's not the product, it's everything beyond the product that really made Apple successful. As for what's next: Removing the computer from the screen. I've been saying it for a LONG time here. I really think Apple is moving toward a server -> client model. You'll buy a computer for the house, a really powerful beast, something you put in the corner. Everyone connects to it using their iPads, monitors, Airs, iPhones. Your session remains the same regardless of the device. Everything is pointing to this.
- blrgeek 16y ago
  This is probably Apple having trouble adjusting their world-view. With the iPhone & iPad, Apple might have expected a level of success and market-share equal to the iPod. And without Android, they might well have gotten there! But with Android, Apple is looking at a market more like Desktop OS, than iPod.
davidedicillo 16y ago
While Google wasn't bashing Apple at all at Google I/O...
jsz0 16y ago
That's how it was reported but if you listen to the actual call it was about 1-2 minutes squarely aimed at the Samsung Galaxy Tab which had just been released.

rbarooah 16y ago

I agree that it seems negative and I'd rather he didn't do it, but I can see why he does. There are plenty of even less accurate commentators who are prepared to make analyses of the situation that are unfavorable to Apple. Most people don't take the time to critically analyze the 'news' they hear and are actually influenced by this stuff. Apple needs to at least state their viewpoint so that it is out there alongside the criticism, and maybe it's better for it to come in this form than in their marketing materials.

martythemaniak 16y ago
Is it so hard for you fanboys to say something like "Lying is wrong and he shouldn't have done it" and just leave it at that? No bullshit, no qualifications, no Gruber-style excuses, just a simple condemnation of someone doing something wrong.
- swombat 16y ago
  Stay civil.
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
  - anonymous246 16y ago
    Stay truthful.
    - tvon 16y ago
      The truth is calling someone a "fanboy" is childish and virtually guaranteed to send the discussion in a bad direction.
      - nowarninglabel 16y ago
        What are we supposed to say? I don't think I'm the only one who is tired of what basically amounts to Apple marketing being posted constantly on HN (and sure maybe the rate of those posts is lower than sites like Techmeme but it's still quite high, see for example Ipad 2 posts http://www.google.com/search?q=site:news.ycombinator.com+%22ipad+2%22 http://www.google.com/search?q=site:news.ycombinator.com+%22... ) There has to be some way to identify this group of people, and say, look it's fine that you love Apple, but this is a place for in-depth discussions, not a place to show the latest shiny new trinket and 'ooh' and 'ahh' over its features.

niels_olson 16y ago

I actually see his assertiveness as a sign of how much Jobs respects the potential of his competitors and the ruthlessness with which the market will walk away from his company's products if he doesn't sell, and just how much obligation he has to employees who sacrifice so much to make it look like magic.

billmcneale 16y ago
You have a strange definition of "respect". Maybe behind closed doors and in board meetings, Jobs will admit that Android is a very fierce competitor that is taking market share away from Apple. But on the public front, he shows nothing but disdain for competitors and he spends much more time on stage disparaging them than he used to. Bashing competitors is not just poor form, it's usually the sign of a business losing steam.
- rbarooah 16y ago
  By that measure, all of the major players are losing steam.
  - Sakes 16y ago
    I think he means that when a company switches from ignoring competitors to acknowledging them by ridiculing them, then they are not as far ahead as they used to be. So it does imply losing steam in this case. Phases: 1) Ignore 2) Ridicule 3) Fight 4) Lose If a company was in phase 2 last year, and phase 2 this year they are not losing steam. A company is losing steam when it moves down the above phase ladder.
    - rbarooah 16y ago
      Nice. That should be a mechanic in the Hacker News board game. "Ridicule Competition: Your CEO is losing confidence but is unaware of it. Lose 3 steam points and miss your next turn."
  - Silhouette 16y ago

fluidcruft 16y ago

Allow me to appropriate a quotation from a person who's legacy Apple has had no shame appropriating for marketing: "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." This was plainly an exercise in ridicule by Jobs.

tvon 16y ago
Of course you realize how easy it is to apply that quote to completely absurd things, e.g. the Flat Earth Society or pretty much anyone who has reached the ridicule stage. It gets significantly harder as you go along (ignored, ridiculed, fought, victory), and the first two are relatively easy... It's basically a rallying cry for the severe underdog (which I don't think Android is in this case).
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
- fluidcruft 16y ago
  It's also about how power behaves when threatened (which I think does describe Android's relationship to Apple).
rbarooah 16y ago
I seem to recall the iPad being pretty roundly ridiculed as 'just a big iPod touch' no USB, no flash, etc. etc, and I hear plenty of ridicule from the Xoom crowd. What's the rule in this situation? Does the one who ridicules first lose, or the one who ridicules the most?
- fluidcruft 16y ago
  It about how power behaves when threatened. The iPad was a challenge to the dominant netbook model. The Xoom crowd isn't at the top, but android is surging, so they're just noise at this point. Apple's at the top. That's the key difference. Ridiculing Android means that it's progressed to the point that they can't ignore them.
16y ago

evo_9 16y ago

Yeah God forbid Apple conducts business like Microsoft and everyone else. I know we hold Apple to a higher moral standard for some reason, but come on, when has Jobs ever held back what he thought of his competitors? I do agree the misquote was silly and unnecessary. I wonder if Jobs himself personally knew it was a complete deception or did he rely on fact checkers and speech writers to do his due diligence and simply wasn't aware the quote was wrong.

corin_ 16y ago
It's nothing about holding Apple to any higher standards, I made exactly the same comment about RIM a couple of months back, and in that instance all they were doing was putting their rivals down, not making up shit. And I'm a huge RIM fanboy.