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for very beginners, yes... Java is not the right programing language to teach. (I'd say Python is). But for intermediate/advanced classes I think Java is a mu

for very beginners, yes... Java is not the right programing language to teach. (I'd say Python is). But for intermediate/advanced classes I think Java is a must learn for every CS graduate. 1. While it is bloated, it has so many modern and not so modern concepts into it, that learning it makes you understand those concepts better. (eg: It is hard to understand Generics if your favorite language doesn't have them) 2. A lot of enterprises (and major tech) backends still run on Java. I thin knowing it is a must to be competitive in the job market as a fresh grad 3. Learning Java (and probably disliking it) it will make you appreciate and perhaps make you better at learning other more nimble languages (aka. GoLang and friends)

0_gravitas 7y ago
I don't particularly agree with the first two but I can WHOLLY agree on the third, in fact, I think I blame Java for my infatuation with FP
shadowCensor 7y ago
Python is perfect for learning programming logic. Wouldn't have wanted it any other way.
- fishmaster 7y ago
  Nope, it's only slightly better than java. Lisps and MLs are objectively better when it comes to teaching Cs materials.
  - shadowCensor 7y ago
    Nope.
bokwoon 7y ago
It’s kind of embarrassing but I didn’t understand generics from my beginner CS course (taught in Java). It wasn’t actively tested on either. I only began to appreciate it when I took an online MOOC in OCaml on a whim.
- kick 7y ago
  Generics in Java were poorly-handled and almost universally considered to be a mistake.
  - djsavvy 7y ago
    Why is that? And how so?
    - nitrogen 7y ago
      I'm not the OP, but look up "type erasure" for one criticism.
      - lazulicurio 7y ago
        Type erasure gets an unfairly bad rap. Yes, it makes reflection difficult sometimes. Yes, it doesn't play well with value types. But other than that, erasure is a very powerful concept.
        MereInterest 7y ago
        My understanding is that the only value in type erasure is that it maintains compatibility with libraries compiled in ancient versions of Java. Are there language-level benefits to type erasure?
        lazulicurio 7y ago
        Absolutely. Erasure lets you write code that's actually generic, instead of code that appears to be generic. For example, in C# IList<Foo> and IList<Bar> are two different interfaces that happen to have similar methods. Whereas in Java, List<Foo> and List<Bar> are the same interface. This means you can do things like this in Java: List<?> list = ... Object o = list.get(0); To do something similar in C# is significantly more effort. You either have to duplicate all of your interfaces (IList + IList<T>), use `dynamic`, or use reflection to compile delegates at runtime. A common complaint is "but erasure lets you add an integer to a list of strings". But as long as you follow PECS[1] rules you can avoid most of those situations. [1] Producer: extends. Consumer: super
alialghamdi 7y ago
I'd like to stress on the second point. When I graduated at 2015, and have done multiple interviews with enterprises, Java or .NET were critical. Don't know if it's the same, but looking into job postings, I'd say it is. It'd definitely different if you work for an IT company, but not always.
DeathArrow 7y ago
Weird reason to promote something in CS courses. CS programs aren't to let you make some easy money in the next few years. CS programs are to provide an thorough and high level of computing, from which writing code is just a small part. Having a CS degree much more than learning a language and framework. If one's goal is just to earn some money in the next few years, he would be better served by taking an Udemy course. University didn't teach me how to code, I did that myself before going to university. What it did teach was the why's and how's of computing without which I would be just a code monkey churning code without having a better understanding. It is the same difference between someone who make an course learning how to repair electrical appliances and electronics and the engineer who designs them.
fishmaster 7y ago
Go and nimble? Jesus christ, you can't be serious.
kdtsh 7y ago
I really want to know what other languages large enterprises are using that have, or are on the track to getting, the kind of volume Java has. Especially languages that don't run on the JVM.

0_gravitas 7y ago

I don't particularly agree with the first two but I can WHOLLY agree on the third, in fact, I think I blame Java for my infatuation with FP

shadowCensor 7y ago

Python is perfect for learning programming logic. Wouldn't have wanted it any other way.

fishmaster 7y ago
Nope, it's only slightly better than java. Lisps and MLs are objectively better when it comes to teaching Cs materials.
- shadowCensor 7y ago
  Nope.

bokwoon 7y ago

It’s kind of embarrassing but I didn’t understand generics from my beginner CS course (taught in Java). It wasn’t actively tested on either. I only began to appreciate it when I took an online MOOC in OCaml on a whim.

kick 7y ago
Generics in Java were poorly-handled and almost universally considered to be a mistake.
- djsavvy 7y ago
  Why is that? And how so?
  - nitrogen 7y ago
    I'm not the OP, but look up "type erasure" for one criticism.
    - lazulicurio 7y ago
      Type erasure gets an unfairly bad rap. Yes, it makes reflection difficult sometimes. Yes, it doesn't play well with value types. But other than that, erasure is a very powerful concept.
      - MereInterest 7y ago
        My understanding is that the only value in type erasure is that it maintains compatibility with libraries compiled in ancient versions of Java. Are there language-level benefits to type erasure?
        lazulicurio 7y ago
        Absolutely. Erasure lets you write code that's actually generic, instead of code that appears to be generic. For example, in C# IList<Foo> and IList<Bar> are two different interfaces that happen to have similar methods. Whereas in Java, List<Foo> and List<Bar> are the same interface. This means you can do things like this in Java: List<?> list = ... Object o = list.get(0); To do something similar in C# is significantly more effort. You either have to duplicate all of your interfaces (IList + IList<T>), use `dynamic`, or use reflection to compile delegates at runtime. A common complaint is "but erasure lets you add an integer to a list of strings". But as long as you follow PECS[1] rules you can avoid most of those situations. [1] Producer: extends. Consumer: super

alialghamdi 7y ago

I'd like to stress on the second point. When I graduated at 2015, and have done multiple interviews with enterprises, Java or .NET were critical. Don't know if it's the same, but looking into job postings, I'd say it is. It'd definitely different if you work for an IT company, but not always.

DeathArrow 7y ago

Weird reason to promote something in CS courses. CS programs aren't to let you make some easy money in the next few years. CS programs are to provide an thorough and high level of computing, from which writing code is just a small part. Having a CS degree much more than learning a language and framework. If one's goal is just to earn some money in the next few years, he would be better served by taking an Udemy course. University didn't teach me how to code, I did that myself before going to university. What it did teach was the why's and how's of computing without which I would be just a code monkey churning code without having a better understanding. It is the same difference between someone who make an course learning how to repair electrical appliances and electronics and the engineer who designs them.

fishmaster 7y ago

Go and nimble? Jesus christ, you can't be serious.

kdtsh 7y ago

I really want to know what other languages large enterprises are using that have, or are on the track to getting, the kind of volume Java has. Especially languages that don't run on the JVM.