4 ms·

See also Emacs Artist mode (1998) http://www.lysator.liu.se/~tab/artist/ http://www.lysator.liu.se/~tab/artist/

by frumiousirc 7y ago

Arkanosis 7y ago
Which is built-in releases of Emacs for as long as I can remember, btw: M-x artist-mode
- taeric 7y ago
  I have still yet to see a strong argument for what is so bad about Emacs. When it seems everything winds up trying to recreate it as they go. Not that I mind reinventing wheels. I'd hazard Emacs itself reinvented a lot.
  - criddell 7y ago
    That's like saying there's no strong argument for what is so bad about milk chocolate. Either you like it or you don't.
    - taeric 7y ago
      I mean, I get what you are saying. But the extensible nature of Emacs is years beyond what other editors typically offer. Can offer? Elisp is not the best lisp out there, but it is still a really powerful language. And that the editor doesn't have any tricks/parts that you can't use as a user is huge.
      - criddell 6y ago
        Emacs can do everything but for specific tasks there's often something that specializes in that thing that's better (IMHO). For example, when I'm writing C++ on Windows, I use Visual Studio. I do Python work in PyCharm. I use Sublime Text for Markdown and light duty text editing. If I'm working over an ssh connection, I use vi. If I'm writing a letter, I'll use Word or Pages. If I want a spreadsheet I use Excel. For slides I'll use Keynote or Powerpoint. Today, I think VSCode is acting as the new Emacs.
  - hedora 7y ago
    My main problem with emacs is the lack of out of the box source code indexing and autocomplete. I’m sure there’s a way to set it up, but even after years of using emacs, I haven’t figured it out. It took me 10 minutes to get VS code to import and index a non-trivial C++ code base, and that’s with no prior VS Code experience. It even popped up some hints when stuff started going sideways.
    - taeric 7y ago
      Oddly, I've gotten bitten by code indexing tools so many times, I like that it is not part of my editor. I sometimes think of seeing up autocorrect. But I find I prefer a greppable codebase over an autocorrect one. That said, plenty of starting packages that do have this setup. I think doom Emacs is the popular one nowadays.
    - jdormit 7y ago
      If you're willing to give Emacs another shot, check out LSP-mode [0]. It's an implementation of the language server protocol, the same tech that powers the autocomplete/jump-to-def/etc. in VS Code, and so it offers exactly the same functionality for all the same languages. It's true that it's not built into Emacs, but it's easy to set up and works well. It's been a total game changer for me - it's allowed me to transition to using Emacs full-time for professional Python programming. [0] https://github.com/emacs-lsp/lsp-mode https://github.com/emacs-lsp/lsp-mode
  - Arkanosis 6y ago
    As a full time Emacs user for more than 13 years now, I have at least three explanations (from the worst aspect to the less bad IMHO): 1. Emacs is different (copy, paste, undo, exit… none of these work the way they work in Windows, KDE, Gnome, Firefox…). This makes you either configure Emacs to behave like everything else and you end up having a subpar Emacs experience, or try to configure everything else to behave like Emacs and you end up doing everything into it, not unlike many Vim users (I'm on my way to the latter option). 2. Emacs doesn't work out of the box. Seriously, there's so much features builtin (artist-mode is only one of thousands), but so little that actually works for stuff that matters. I'm not even talking about advanced stuff like LSP (that most people take for granted nowadays), just about the most basic stuff like the home / end keys, multi-level undo… It's just a matter of turning a few knobs, but you still have to do that. Oh, and while this could be the best way to start understanding where Emacs is incredibly powerful (customization), it isn't because you do it in Elisp. 3. Emacs is not pretty. I've solved the problem by hiding everything but the text editing UI, but it sure doesn't give much appeal at first sight.
    - taeric 6y ago
      In reverse order. I find most other editors ugly. But I suspect this is the main stickler. Had a Windows friend ask why nobody has made a ribbon interface for Emacs. Not many icons at all. I didn't know how to respond, as I have long ago turned off most decorations. Programming got easier as soon as I started really internalizing that I am not programming a computer, per se, instead I am programming the editor. For the out of box experience. This is at odds, or competition, with how much many users have customized it. I'm sympathetic, but not sure how to fix it. And, I think this is not fair, either. Blindly pasting in Word or Excel is also a frustrating experience. Just in a different way.

See also Emacs Artist mode (1998) http://www.lysator.liu.se/~tab/artist/ http://www.lysator.liu.se/~tab/artist/

Arkanosis 7y ago

Which is built-in releases of Emacs for as long as I can remember, btw: M-x artist-mode

taeric 7y ago
I have still yet to see a strong argument for what is so bad about Emacs. When it seems everything winds up trying to recreate it as they go. Not that I mind reinventing wheels. I'd hazard Emacs itself reinvented a lot.
- criddell 7y ago
  That's like saying there's no strong argument for what is so bad about milk chocolate. Either you like it or you don't.
  - taeric 7y ago
    I mean, I get what you are saying. But the extensible nature of Emacs is years beyond what other editors typically offer. Can offer? Elisp is not the best lisp out there, but it is still a really powerful language. And that the editor doesn't have any tricks/parts that you can't use as a user is huge.
    - criddell 6y ago
      Emacs can do everything but for specific tasks there's often something that specializes in that thing that's better (IMHO). For example, when I'm writing C++ on Windows, I use Visual Studio. I do Python work in PyCharm. I use Sublime Text for Markdown and light duty text editing. If I'm working over an ssh connection, I use vi. If I'm writing a letter, I'll use Word or Pages. If I want a spreadsheet I use Excel. For slides I'll use Keynote or Powerpoint. Today, I think VSCode is acting as the new Emacs.
- hedora 7y ago
  My main problem with emacs is the lack of out of the box source code indexing and autocomplete. I’m sure there’s a way to set it up, but even after years of using emacs, I haven’t figured it out. It took me 10 minutes to get VS code to import and index a non-trivial C++ code base, and that’s with no prior VS Code experience. It even popped up some hints when stuff started going sideways.
  - taeric 7y ago
    Oddly, I've gotten bitten by code indexing tools so many times, I like that it is not part of my editor. I sometimes think of seeing up autocorrect. But I find I prefer a greppable codebase over an autocorrect one. That said, plenty of starting packages that do have this setup. I think doom Emacs is the popular one nowadays.
  - jdormit 7y ago
    If you're willing to give Emacs another shot, check out LSP-mode [0]. It's an implementation of the language server protocol, the same tech that powers the autocomplete/jump-to-def/etc. in VS Code, and so it offers exactly the same functionality for all the same languages. It's true that it's not built into Emacs, but it's easy to set up and works well. It's been a total game changer for me - it's allowed me to transition to using Emacs full-time for professional Python programming. [0] https://github.com/emacs-lsp/lsp-mode https://github.com/emacs-lsp/lsp-mode
- Arkanosis 6y ago
  As a full time Emacs user for more than 13 years now, I have at least three explanations (from the worst aspect to the less bad IMHO): 1. Emacs is different (copy, paste, undo, exit… none of these work the way they work in Windows, KDE, Gnome, Firefox…). This makes you either configure Emacs to behave like everything else and you end up having a subpar Emacs experience, or try to configure everything else to behave like Emacs and you end up doing everything into it, not unlike many Vim users (I'm on my way to the latter option). 2. Emacs doesn't work out of the box. Seriously, there's so much features builtin (artist-mode is only one of thousands), but so little that actually works for stuff that matters. I'm not even talking about advanced stuff like LSP (that most people take for granted nowadays), just about the most basic stuff like the home / end keys, multi-level undo… It's just a matter of turning a few knobs, but you still have to do that. Oh, and while this could be the best way to start understanding where Emacs is incredibly powerful (customization), it isn't because you do it in Elisp. 3. Emacs is not pretty. I've solved the problem by hiding everything but the text editing UI, but it sure doesn't give much appeal at first sight.
  - taeric 6y ago
    In reverse order. I find most other editors ugly. But I suspect this is the main stickler. Had a Windows friend ask why nobody has made a ribbon interface for Emacs. Not many icons at all. I didn't know how to respond, as I have long ago turned off most decorations. Programming got easier as soon as I started really internalizing that I am not programming a computer, per se, instead I am programming the editor. For the out of box experience. This is at odds, or competition, with how much many users have customized it. I'm sympathetic, but not sure how to fix it. And, I think this is not fair, either. Blindly pasting in Word or Excel is also a frustrating experience. Just in a different way.