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>The best programmers I've worked with have mostly not had CS degrees (tended to have degrees in maths, physics, or that sort of area). There's no you were rig

>The best programmers I've worked with have mostly not had CS degrees (tended to have degrees in maths, physics, or that sort of area). There's no you were rigorous enough in tracking this for this statement to be useful to anyone. The people who don't fit the mold stand out.

commandlinefan 7y ago
"The best programmers I know didn't have a degree in CS" has become a pretty tired cliche at this point...
lmm 7y ago
> There's no you were rigorous enough in tracking this for this statement to be useful to anyone. Sure, but has anyone claiming the opposite done rigorous analysis? Is there any evidence that having a CS degree makes for better programmers than not? > The people who don't fit the mold stand out. I'm not thinking about people who stood out as particularly unusual. Most of the time I didn't find out which field someone's degree was in until months into working with them.
- learc83 7y ago
  >Sure, but has anyone claiming the opposite done rigorous analysis? Is there any evidence that having a CS degree makes for better programmers than not? I'm not making that claim, you're the one making a claim that people with degrees other than CS are better programmers without evidence. I'll only make the claim that a CS degree made me a better programmer. Specifically the upper level theoretical classes. I can verify that there are many problems I've solved because I realized that the problem I was working on had already been solved 50 years ago. I also worked about a decade as a professional programmer without a CS degree, before I went back. Personally I am a better programmer. Would I have been an even better programmer had I taken another few semesters of math classes instead of CS classes? Who knows? Absent any other evidence though, the simplest explanation is that domain specific knowledge is likely useful. >I'm not thinking about people who stood out as particularly unusual. Most of the time I didn't find out which field someone's degree was in until months into working with them. The point is that the more unusual someone's background is, the more likely you are to remember it. Particularly if there is some confirmation bias involved.
  - lmm 7y ago
    > Absent any other evidence though, the simplest explanation is that domain specific knowledge is likely useful. Disagree; surely the null hypothesis for any given training programme is that it has no effect. > The point is that the more unusual someone's background is, the more likely you are to remember it. Particularly if there is some confirmation bias involved. There isn't anything unusual about professional programmers having a degree in maths or physics rather than CS. At least in my experience it was pretty close to an equal split.
    - learc83 6y ago
      >Disagree; surely the null hypothesis for any given training programme is that it has no effect. That's not what's under test here though. It's training program A that includes domain specific knowledge or training program B that does not. >There isn't anything unusual about professional programmers having a degree in maths or physics rather than CS. At least in my experience it was pretty close to an equal split. Look at the number of graduates, the only way that is true is if almost every single physics or math graduate goes into programming. The fact that you think it's true is just further evidence of bias. According to the Stack Overflow Developer Survey [1], about 8% of professional developers with degrees majored in math, or natural sciences vs. 63% in CS, software engineering, or computer engineering. There could be some sampling bias, but that's a huge difference. 1. https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2019#education https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2019#education
      - lmm 6y ago
        I'm not talking about a maths or physics degree specifically. I'm talking about having a CS degree or not. The stack overflow survey seems to have shifted towards CS recently; the 2015 results (earliest I could find) imply 52% of professional developers had CS degrees at that point, which was about halfway through my career so far, so 50:50 for people I've worked with sounds about right. I suspect SO surveys are heavily biased towards younger developers, but even taking those 2019 numbers at face value: about 20% of professional developers have no degree, and of those with degrees it's about 75% CS/information systems/sysadmin/webdev, 17% maths/physics/engineering, and 8% other. So a typical 15-developer team would be 9 with CS degrees, 3 with no degree, 1 with an engineering degree, 1 with maths/science and 1 other. The non-CS folk are not exactly rare unicorns.

commandlinefan 7y ago

"The best programmers I know didn't have a degree in CS" has become a pretty tired cliche at this point...

lmm 7y ago

> There's no you were rigorous enough in tracking this for this statement to be useful to anyone. Sure, but has anyone claiming the opposite done rigorous analysis? Is there any evidence that having a CS degree makes for better programmers than not? > The people who don't fit the mold stand out. I'm not thinking about people who stood out as particularly unusual. Most of the time I didn't find out which field someone's degree was in until months into working with them.

learc83 7y ago
>Sure, but has anyone claiming the opposite done rigorous analysis? Is there any evidence that having a CS degree makes for better programmers than not? I'm not making that claim, you're the one making a claim that people with degrees other than CS are better programmers without evidence. I'll only make the claim that a CS degree made me a better programmer. Specifically the upper level theoretical classes. I can verify that there are many problems I've solved because I realized that the problem I was working on had already been solved 50 years ago. I also worked about a decade as a professional programmer without a CS degree, before I went back. Personally I am a better programmer. Would I have been an even better programmer had I taken another few semesters of math classes instead of CS classes? Who knows? Absent any other evidence though, the simplest explanation is that domain specific knowledge is likely useful. >I'm not thinking about people who stood out as particularly unusual. Most of the time I didn't find out which field someone's degree was in until months into working with them. The point is that the more unusual someone's background is, the more likely you are to remember it. Particularly if there is some confirmation bias involved.
- lmm 7y ago
  > Absent any other evidence though, the simplest explanation is that domain specific knowledge is likely useful. Disagree; surely the null hypothesis for any given training programme is that it has no effect. > The point is that the more unusual someone's background is, the more likely you are to remember it. Particularly if there is some confirmation bias involved. There isn't anything unusual about professional programmers having a degree in maths or physics rather than CS. At least in my experience it was pretty close to an equal split.
  - learc83 6y ago
    >Disagree; surely the null hypothesis for any given training programme is that it has no effect. That's not what's under test here though. It's training program A that includes domain specific knowledge or training program B that does not. >There isn't anything unusual about professional programmers having a degree in maths or physics rather than CS. At least in my experience it was pretty close to an equal split. Look at the number of graduates, the only way that is true is if almost every single physics or math graduate goes into programming. The fact that you think it's true is just further evidence of bias. According to the Stack Overflow Developer Survey [1], about 8% of professional developers with degrees majored in math, or natural sciences vs. 63% in CS, software engineering, or computer engineering. There could be some sampling bias, but that's a huge difference. 1. https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2019#education https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2019#education
    - lmm 6y ago
      I'm not talking about a maths or physics degree specifically. I'm talking about having a CS degree or not. The stack overflow survey seems to have shifted towards CS recently; the 2015 results (earliest I could find) imply 52% of professional developers had CS degrees at that point, which was about halfway through my career so far, so 50:50 for people I've worked with sounds about right. I suspect SO surveys are heavily biased towards younger developers, but even taking those 2019 numbers at face value: about 20% of professional developers have no degree, and of those with degrees it's about 75% CS/information systems/sysadmin/webdev, 17% maths/physics/engineering, and 8% other. So a typical 15-developer team would be 9 with CS degrees, 3 with no degree, 1 with an engineering degree, 1 with maths/science and 1 other. The non-CS folk are not exactly rare unicorns.