3 ms·

> Almost no other "white collar" profession I'm aware of will so completely and thoroughly ignore your actual proven ability, historical accomplishments, and ho

> Almost no other "white collar" profession I'm aware of will so completely and thoroughly ignore your actual proven ability, historical accomplishments, and holistic qualities, as part of the hiring process. Perhaps that's because programmer is not a white collar profession? Those who don't manage other programmers are naturally at the bottom of the hierarchy, just like a machinist (clearly a blue collar profession, though I would certainly show proper deference to them before I even dare approach a machine). Never mind how useful, or how skilled, people at the bottom are. They're at the bottom, and that alone probably affects how they are treated. The hiring process is just an effect of this.

rsynnott 7y ago
"White collar" doesn't normally exclusively mean managerial, it means 'professional' in a kind of poorly-defined, rather obsolete, classist way. A "you know it when you see it" thing. For instance, a doctor is white collar (but probably not a manager). So's an accountant, or an engineer; again, they're mostly not managers.
- loup-vaillant 7y ago
  How about a cordwainer? Many are highly qualified professionals, and I bet they're "blue collar" all the same. They're working with their hands making shoes after all. I think this "white/blue" distinction blinds us somewhat. What really matters is how others (in particular those who have power over us) perceive us. As for being a profession, relatively few programmers are independent. Most work under a boss, with the same hierarchical constraints as a factory worker. We're not organised as a profession. I dare say we aren't a profession just yet. Our trade is too young for us to have achieved good average competence (doubling our numbers doesn't help, and is an indication that there's no selection pressure yet). The only thing that makes us "white collar" is that we work in clean environment, without physical exertion.
  - rsynnott 7y ago
    > How about a cordwainer? Many are highly qualified professionals, and I bet they're "blue collar" all the same. Yup. That's largely where we get into the classism thing. "White collar" doesn't say anything in particular about skill or earnings (or even education, necessarily; you don't need a degree to be white collar); it's a class signifier. > As for being a profession, relatively few programmers are independent. Most work under a boss, with the same hierarchical constraints as a factory worker. Same goes for doctors (in most countries), accountants, etc. And of course, a middle-manager is white collar. While collar doesn't necessarily mean self-employed/company owner/bourgeois. It's more complicated than that.

rsynnott 7y ago

"White collar" doesn't normally exclusively mean managerial, it means 'professional' in a kind of poorly-defined, rather obsolete, classist way. A "you know it when you see it" thing. For instance, a doctor is white collar (but probably not a manager). So's an accountant, or an engineer; again, they're mostly not managers.

loup-vaillant 7y ago
How about a cordwainer? Many are highly qualified professionals, and I bet they're "blue collar" all the same. They're working with their hands making shoes after all. I think this "white/blue" distinction blinds us somewhat. What really matters is how others (in particular those who have power over us) perceive us. As for being a profession, relatively few programmers are independent. Most work under a boss, with the same hierarchical constraints as a factory worker. We're not organised as a profession. I dare say we aren't a profession just yet. Our trade is too young for us to have achieved good average competence (doubling our numbers doesn't help, and is an indication that there's no selection pressure yet). The only thing that makes us "white collar" is that we work in clean environment, without physical exertion.
- rsynnott 7y ago
  > How about a cordwainer? Many are highly qualified professionals, and I bet they're "blue collar" all the same. Yup. That's largely where we get into the classism thing. "White collar" doesn't say anything in particular about skill or earnings (or even education, necessarily; you don't need a degree to be white collar); it's a class signifier. > As for being a profession, relatively few programmers are independent. Most work under a boss, with the same hierarchical constraints as a factory worker. Same goes for doctors (in most countries), accountants, etc. And of course, a middle-manager is white collar. While collar doesn't necessarily mean self-employed/company owner/bourgeois. It's more complicated than that.