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> You don't want to shut it down because once you know it exists it's a honeypot That's supposing law enforcement has viable ways to leverage knowledge of its

by ethbro 7y ago

> You don't want to shut it down because once you know it exists it's a honeypot That's supposing law enforcement has viable ways to leverage knowledge of its existence into investigation and prosecution. In a future where we have end-to-end encryption widely deployed, this isn't a trivial ask. Criminals are lazy, sure. But write laws for the future we want, not the easiest case scenario.

AnthonyMouse 7y ago
> That's supposing law enforcement has viable ways to leverage knowledge of its existence into investigation and prosecution. Which they do, because that's their job and they do it all day long. We're somehow talking about both end to end encryption and moderated public forums, but those are two different things. If you have a public forum where anybody on the forum can read the messages then anybody on the forum can read the messages -- including law enforcement. So they join the forum and start investigating in all the usual ways, and get a warrant to have the ISP upstream from the site start logging its traffic so they can start locating the users and getting warrants to bug their homes etc. When you have end to end encrypted communications, the only people who have the message are the sender and the receiver. Then there is no dedicated CreditCardSkimmersChat site, they can use any generic secure messaging software for that. But this isn't any more difficult for law enforcement than criminals who communicate in person -- you still have to come by some reasonable suspicion of them to begin with somehow, and once you have you get a warrant to install bugs, which overcomes end to end encryption because then you're collecting data at one of the endpoints.
- ethbro 7y ago
  > Which they do, because that's their job and they do it all day long. With varying degrees of success. Let's not pretend an encrypted-everywhere world (which includes e2e, onion routing, and other options) opens up like an oyster at the first sign of a warrant. What would your opinion be if CreditCardSkimmersChat advertised itself as a place to meet other people involved in credit card skimming? With all conversation taken to e2e chats as soon as two people were introduced Not constructing a pathological case here. Am really interested in how folks feel about the social responsibilities of serious encryption.

by ethbro 7y ago

AnthonyMouse 7y ago

> That's supposing law enforcement has viable ways to leverage knowledge of its existence into investigation and prosecution. Which they do, because that's their job and they do it all day long. We're somehow talking about both end to end encryption and moderated public forums, but those are two different things. If you have a public forum where anybody on the forum can read the messages then anybody on the forum can read the messages -- including law enforcement. So they join the forum and start investigating in all the usual ways, and get a warrant to have the ISP upstream from the site start logging its traffic so they can start locating the users and getting warrants to bug their homes etc. When you have end to end encrypted communications, the only people who have the message are the sender and the receiver. Then there is no dedicated CreditCardSkimmersChat site, they can use any generic secure messaging software for that. But this isn't any more difficult for law enforcement than criminals who communicate in person -- you still have to come by some reasonable suspicion of them to begin with somehow, and once you have you get a warrant to install bugs, which overcomes end to end encryption because then you're collecting data at one of the endpoints.

ethbro 7y ago
> Which they do, because that's their job and they do it all day long. With varying degrees of success. Let's not pretend an encrypted-everywhere world (which includes e2e, onion routing, and other options) opens up like an oyster at the first sign of a warrant. What would your opinion be if CreditCardSkimmersChat advertised itself as a place to meet other people involved in credit card skimming? With all conversation taken to e2e chats as soon as two people were introduced Not constructing a pathological case here. Am really interested in how folks feel about the social responsibilities of serious encryption.