5 ms·

The evidence isn't strong. That said 5G does expose you to more base station radiation than ever before, with cells of up to 120W and a cell every neighborhood

by ip26 7y ago

The evidence isn't strong. That said 5G does expose you to more base station radiation than ever before, with cells of up to 120W and a cell every neighborhood block. Compare to 4G with cells of 20W and a cell every city block or two. So to me it's always seemed rational to at least revisit the question and reaffirm it's still fine. We've reversed course on plenty of things that were once believed to be fine, or once believed to be harmful! Trans fats, asbestos, lead, sun, saturated fats, sugar, exercise, etc etc. Though, the antenna in your phone exposes you to more radiation than the base station, so that's probably the more important question. Perhaps with higher base station density, the mobile devices actually reduce output.

__s 7y ago
Challenge of revisting these questions is there can't be someone getting involved who's bet all their chips on the answer beforehand
_red 7y ago
Typically the debate centers around "non-ionizing radiation is safe" and strictly speaking that's probably 100% true. >We've reversed course on plenty of things that were once believed to be fine That is my concern. Specifically that the "non-ionizing radiation" is a red-herring. Its possible that EMF exposure effects cells in another way that we've yet to realize. As a poor analogy: Arguing that being exposed to constant visible light on the basis that "Light is non-ionizing" misses the fact that constant visible light disrupts the circadian rhythm which has a host of other ill-effects. To be clear, I'm not suggesting that we ban something on a fear, but given the enormous potential cost if we get it wrong, it should be thoroughly studied.
- catalogia 7y ago
  The big difference between visible light and 5G in this case is humans are known to be capable of sensing visible light, while no person has ever demonstrated the ability to sense radio waves like 5G signals. Of course we can't sense gamma radiation either, but in the case of ionizing radiation we at least have solid evidence humans can be harmed by it. But for radio waves? There's nothing, no hint of how any harm might occur, short of being put in a microwave oven and receiving thermal burns.
  - meowface 7y ago
    > But for radio waves? There's nothing, no hint of how any harm might occur, short of being put in a microwave oven and receiving thermal burns. To preface: I don't think there's any evidence at this time that standard levels of non-ionizing electromagnetic radiation are harmful to humans. But it's not inconceivable that there could be some harm caused which we're not aware of yet and which is eventually discovered in the future. The body and brain are extremely complex and not fully understood, etc. Molecular biology is sensitive. It's not implausible that there could hypothetically be certain chemical reactions or cell processes which are subtly disrupted by certain frequency bands at certain amplitudes. I personally don't think there will be such a finding, but people still need to keep an open mind, I think.
- meowface 7y ago
  True, I think it's important for people to distinguish that. "The waves can't ionize, so you shouldn't be worried" is a counter-argument I often see, and it really isn't a good one. The entire point is to try to identify what other potential harm electromagnetic radiation could cause beyond ionization. It definitely needs to be thoroughly studied. But to my understanding, the past decades of study into it haven't revealed any harmful effects so far, at the energy levels that humans are generally exposed to. I do think it should continue to be studied in different ways, but given the current knowledge, I don't think people should feel very concerned about it.
jacquesm 7y ago
I operated a 1KW 100 MHz transmitter in my 'bad boy' days, my children all seem to have the right number of heads. And that thing would fry pigeons if I forgot to give the rotor a shake before switching on the end stage. Less than 5 meters from me most of the time.
- meowface 7y ago
  I think it's very likely that such EMF isn't harmful and the current body of evidence is correct, but "I was exposed and I seem fine" is always an argument people use for things like this. For one, even if that's true, that doesn't necessarily mean anything about others' specific situations (exposure, direction/angle, their genetics, etc.), but more importantly, it's very possible that one may not ever actually detect certain subtle harmful long-term changes. Someone exposed to low levels of lead poisoning over many years may not notice anything's happening to them. If after 10 years their memory isn't quite what it used to be, yet it's still mostly fine, they'll likely just chalk it up to aging.
  - jacquesm 7y ago
    Yes, it is obviously anecdata. N=1 and all that. But trust me, 1KW is nothing to sneeze at, the fluorescent tubes in the building I was in would light up spontaneously, as would those as far as I could see wherever the antenna would point. A couple of blocks at least. So if there was a direct effect and not just some very low statistical one you would expect to see a case like that register. This is not unlike smoking where chugging 4 packs per day tends to have consequences. And then of course, everybody has that great-uncle who did smoke 4 packs per day and still runs the half marathon at 85. Maybe I'm that guy, but I think that the whole EM->cell or DNA interaction is a load of bunk until you get into extreme power at very short range. A KW of HF when you touch it or less than that at GHz+ ranges and you will do real damage to tissue, I have the scar to prove that one. The induced power falls off very rapidly with distance, especially for omni-directional radiators. The 120' antennae that are common on cell phone installations have relatively low efficiency and 100W or so of radiated power per antenna, maybe 105W at the foot of the mast but unless there is some kind of giant impedance mismatch and if there is then you'll just fry an end stage.
jacquesm 7y ago
That 4G cell of 20W at a couple of meters and even that 120W 5G cell is still absolutely nothing compared to the cell phone you hold against your head.

by ip26 7y ago

__s 7y ago

Challenge of revisting these questions is there can't be someone getting involved who's bet all their chips on the answer beforehand

_red 7y ago

Typically the debate centers around "non-ionizing radiation is safe" and strictly speaking that's probably 100% true. >We've reversed course on plenty of things that were once believed to be fine That is my concern. Specifically that the "non-ionizing radiation" is a red-herring. Its possible that EMF exposure effects cells in another way that we've yet to realize. As a poor analogy: Arguing that being exposed to constant visible light on the basis that "Light is non-ionizing" misses the fact that constant visible light disrupts the circadian rhythm which has a host of other ill-effects. To be clear, I'm not suggesting that we ban something on a fear, but given the enormous potential cost if we get it wrong, it should be thoroughly studied.

catalogia 7y ago
The big difference between visible light and 5G in this case is humans are known to be capable of sensing visible light, while no person has ever demonstrated the ability to sense radio waves like 5G signals. Of course we can't sense gamma radiation either, but in the case of ionizing radiation we at least have solid evidence humans can be harmed by it. But for radio waves? There's nothing, no hint of how any harm might occur, short of being put in a microwave oven and receiving thermal burns.
- meowface 7y ago
  > But for radio waves? There's nothing, no hint of how any harm might occur, short of being put in a microwave oven and receiving thermal burns. To preface: I don't think there's any evidence at this time that standard levels of non-ionizing electromagnetic radiation are harmful to humans. But it's not inconceivable that there could be some harm caused which we're not aware of yet and which is eventually discovered in the future. The body and brain are extremely complex and not fully understood, etc. Molecular biology is sensitive. It's not implausible that there could hypothetically be certain chemical reactions or cell processes which are subtly disrupted by certain frequency bands at certain amplitudes. I personally don't think there will be such a finding, but people still need to keep an open mind, I think.
meowface 7y ago
True, I think it's important for people to distinguish that. "The waves can't ionize, so you shouldn't be worried" is a counter-argument I often see, and it really isn't a good one. The entire point is to try to identify what other potential harm electromagnetic radiation could cause beyond ionization. It definitely needs to be thoroughly studied. But to my understanding, the past decades of study into it haven't revealed any harmful effects so far, at the energy levels that humans are generally exposed to. I do think it should continue to be studied in different ways, but given the current knowledge, I don't think people should feel very concerned about it.

jacquesm 7y ago

I operated a 1KW 100 MHz transmitter in my 'bad boy' days, my children all seem to have the right number of heads. And that thing would fry pigeons if I forgot to give the rotor a shake before switching on the end stage. Less than 5 meters from me most of the time.

meowface 7y ago
I think it's very likely that such EMF isn't harmful and the current body of evidence is correct, but "I was exposed and I seem fine" is always an argument people use for things like this. For one, even if that's true, that doesn't necessarily mean anything about others' specific situations (exposure, direction/angle, their genetics, etc.), but more importantly, it's very possible that one may not ever actually detect certain subtle harmful long-term changes. Someone exposed to low levels of lead poisoning over many years may not notice anything's happening to them. If after 10 years their memory isn't quite what it used to be, yet it's still mostly fine, they'll likely just chalk it up to aging.
- jacquesm 7y ago
  Yes, it is obviously anecdata. N=1 and all that. But trust me, 1KW is nothing to sneeze at, the fluorescent tubes in the building I was in would light up spontaneously, as would those as far as I could see wherever the antenna would point. A couple of blocks at least. So if there was a direct effect and not just some very low statistical one you would expect to see a case like that register. This is not unlike smoking where chugging 4 packs per day tends to have consequences. And then of course, everybody has that great-uncle who did smoke 4 packs per day and still runs the half marathon at 85. Maybe I'm that guy, but I think that the whole EM->cell or DNA interaction is a load of bunk until you get into extreme power at very short range. A KW of HF when you touch it or less than that at GHz+ ranges and you will do real damage to tissue, I have the scar to prove that one. The induced power falls off very rapidly with distance, especially for omni-directional radiators. The 120' antennae that are common on cell phone installations have relatively low efficiency and 100W or so of radiated power per antenna, maybe 105W at the foot of the mast but unless there is some kind of giant impedance mismatch and if there is then you'll just fry an end stage.

jacquesm 7y ago

That 4G cell of 20W at a couple of meters and even that 120W 5G cell is still absolutely nothing compared to the cell phone you hold against your head.