9 ms·

Ask HN: Is there ANY scientific evidence of 5G being harmful

I see lots of people talking about negative health effects from 5G but I have never seen any evidence. It is always some guy talking on YouTube or equivalent. If there is any actual evidence, I would like to see it. It looks like conspiracy theory to me but I haven’t done enough personal research to pass judgement.

daemonspudguy 7y ago
Not that I've seen.
celticninja 7y ago
no
sosilkj 7y ago
there are some interesting links in this HN comment regarding this question: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20038570 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20038570 in general, research on RF radiation can take time to wade through and you might not arrive at a satisfying answer one way or the other.
- dublin 7y ago
  Hadn't seen some of the links in that post - definitely some good solid info there...
ehutch79 7y ago
No. There's questions about the general increase of wireless traffic in general, but nothing has be proven at all since cell phones came about. Let alone microwaves, or household appliances. At least not to my knowledge.
- ehutch79 7y ago
  Also, one of the conspiracy theories against 5g is that the towers are literally sucking the air out of your lungs. :-| https://www.theverge.com/2020/4/4/21207927/5g-towers-burning-uk-coronavirus-conspiracy-theory-link https://www.theverge.com/2020/4/4/21207927/5g-towers-burning...
  - oblongx 7y ago
    True, that one is a little wild but there is also another angle as to why 5g is "bad": https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22480444 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22480444
- triyambakam 7y ago
  https://emfscientist.org/index.php/emf-scientist-appeal https://emfscientist.org/index.php/emf-scientist-appeal
- triyambakam 7y ago
  https://peaceinspace.blogs.com/files/5g-emf-hazards--dr-martin-l.-pall--eu-emf2018-6-11us3.pdf https://peaceinspace.blogs.com/files/5g-emf-hazards--dr-mart... https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1631070513000480 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S163107051... https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S037842742030028X https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S03784... http://www.5gappeal.eu/ http://www.5gappeal.eu/
redis_mlc 7y ago
The science-based answer is that it depends on the frequency and effect on human tissue. So mounting a telco transmitter on your roof is probably bad for you, similar to being inside a microwave oven. Holding it pressed against your ear while talking is also probably bad for you depending on duration, but mfgs. do tests at various distances from your ear. If you're a real estate agent using your mobile phone all day, I'd use an earpiece and put the phone on your desk away from your body.
drummer 7y ago
Yes https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/BRIE/2020/646172/EPRS_BRI(2020)646172_EN.pdf https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/BRIE/2020/6461...
- drummer 7y ago
  Also https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9bdU_uw2Dc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9bdU_uw2Dc
- WarOnPrivacy 7y ago
  Millimeter waves (30-100GHz range) attenuate like crazy & are seriously degraded by pretty much everything (eg: rain, dust). For folks who must fret over mm wave tech, it's worth considering that cell towers have been using 11-83GHz bands for short distance backhaul & linkage for decades. So have tons of other industries. Last, I'm about positive that only some approved frequency groups in the 5G standard will be in use, in any given region. Lower bands should see the widest deployment.
dublin 7y ago
Wackiness aside, there is some evidence that some wireless technologies can and do present real dangers (e.g., a Scandanavian study a few years back that showed pelvic blade bone density was as much as 30% less on the side men carried their GSM phones on their belts.) 5G is also a horribly imprecise term - it can include anything from 600 MHz UHF to 40 GHz mm wave, and widely varying modulation and power control schemes. The lower bands are probably not a problem, as we've been using some of them for quite a while, though not on our persons. The mm-wave and THz stuff really is a huge unknown. One problem is that these technologies don't ever get seriously tested for biological effects: They just get deployed due to industry/govt/carrier/market pressure, and by the time we have enough data to even know therer might be a danger (viz, the GSM study above), we're already experimenting on the population as test subjects for the next generation of risk. At least as much as the frequency, the modulation method seems to matter, too, with the very sharp-edged full-power square waves of TSM/GSM type signals probably being considerably worse than the noise-like CDMA, for instance. (IMO, there is probably no current (4G/5G) LTE technology that is nearly as safe as CDMA.) More recent research does seem to show that there are RF health effects that are NOT related to heating, but heating is the only thing any of the gov't/industry "RF safety" regs cover. This really is one of those areas where an honest person is forced to recognize that we have no idea what we don't know. RF and biology is a barely studied field, yet we know that many (most? all?) living things do have biophoton systems that we don't understand, and have largely ignored. 5G could be heinously dangerous, or relatively benign. So the answer to your question is no, there isn't (much) solid evidence yet that 5G is dangerous, and we won't really know for many years. But neither is there any actual evidence that it is safe and harmless...
- sinak 7y ago
  I think the modulations schemes are largely the same across the board for 5G. Also 4G LTE and 5G signal waveforms both look a lot like CDMA.
tangent-man 7y ago
This page seems to have a fair few links to legit scientific studies on the dangers of 5G and related technologies. https://ehtrust.org/science/cell-towers-and-cell-antennae/compilation-of-research-studies-on-cell-tower-radiation-and-health/ https://ehtrust.org/science/cell-towers-and-cell-antennae/co... I don't think it's a simple matter of: non-ionizing radiotion=safe.
runjake 7y ago
Pro-tip: this happened when EDGE, 3G, and 4G were released and in all of the above cases, were debunked.
- rs23296008n1 7y ago
  https://www.chicagotribune.com/investigations/ct-cell-phone-radiation-testing-20190821-72qgu4nzlfda5kyuhteiieh4da-story.html https://www.chicagotribune.com/investigations/ct-cell-phone-... Not so sure they were. The testing wasn't exactly great and compliance in the real world is... less than realistic.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
buboard 7y ago
no but we also need evidence that it's useful
- freehunter 7y ago
  I’d agree with that. I keep seeing headlines like “5g will enable the IoT” and “5g will take AI to the next level” but I have yet to see what specifically about 5g makes that claim any more true than 4g or 3g or EDGE. We haven’t even gotten the full speed we were promised with 4g.
tangent-man 7y ago
In my opinion your better off asking this question on a biomedical forum as Computer Programmers and Electronics Engineers seem to have a conflict of interest regarding this for some reason.
mrtonypino 7y ago
Not a scientific study, but a notable anecdote that struck me a while ago. Firefighters in SF reported a host of symptoms after a 5G unit was placed on their station: https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2018/01/25/consumerwatch-5g-cellphone-towers-signal-renewed-concerns-over-impacts-on-health/ https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2018/01/25/consumerwatch-5...

daemonspudguy 7y ago

Not that I've seen.

celticninja 7y ago

sosilkj 7y ago

there are some interesting links in this HN comment regarding this question: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20038570 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20038570 in general, research on RF radiation can take time to wade through and you might not arrive at a satisfying answer one way or the other.

dublin 7y ago
Hadn't seen some of the links in that post - definitely some good solid info there...

ehutch79 7y ago

No. There's questions about the general increase of wireless traffic in general, but nothing has be proven at all since cell phones came about. Let alone microwaves, or household appliances. At least not to my knowledge.

ehutch79 7y ago
Also, one of the conspiracy theories against 5g is that the towers are literally sucking the air out of your lungs. :-| https://www.theverge.com/2020/4/4/21207927/5g-towers-burning-uk-coronavirus-conspiracy-theory-link https://www.theverge.com/2020/4/4/21207927/5g-towers-burning...
- oblongx 7y ago
  True, that one is a little wild but there is also another angle as to why 5g is "bad": https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22480444 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22480444
triyambakam 7y ago
https://emfscientist.org/index.php/emf-scientist-appeal https://emfscientist.org/index.php/emf-scientist-appeal
triyambakam 7y ago
https://peaceinspace.blogs.com/files/5g-emf-hazards--dr-martin-l.-pall--eu-emf2018-6-11us3.pdf https://peaceinspace.blogs.com/files/5g-emf-hazards--dr-mart... https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1631070513000480 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S163107051... https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S037842742030028X https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S03784... http://www.5gappeal.eu/ http://www.5gappeal.eu/

redis_mlc 7y ago

The science-based answer is that it depends on the frequency and effect on human tissue. So mounting a telco transmitter on your roof is probably bad for you, similar to being inside a microwave oven. Holding it pressed against your ear while talking is also probably bad for you depending on duration, but mfgs. do tests at various distances from your ear. If you're a real estate agent using your mobile phone all day, I'd use an earpiece and put the phone on your desk away from your body.

drummer 7y ago

Yes https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/BRIE/2020/646172/EPRS_BRI(2020)646172_EN.pdf https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/BRIE/2020/6461...

drummer 7y ago
Also https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9bdU_uw2Dc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9bdU_uw2Dc
WarOnPrivacy 7y ago
Millimeter waves (30-100GHz range) attenuate like crazy & are seriously degraded by pretty much everything (eg: rain, dust). For folks who must fret over mm wave tech, it's worth considering that cell towers have been using 11-83GHz bands for short distance backhaul & linkage for decades. So have tons of other industries. Last, I'm about positive that only some approved frequency groups in the 5G standard will be in use, in any given region. Lower bands should see the widest deployment.

dublin 7y ago

Wackiness aside, there is some evidence that some wireless technologies can and do present real dangers (e.g., a Scandanavian study a few years back that showed pelvic blade bone density was as much as 30% less on the side men carried their GSM phones on their belts.) 5G is also a horribly imprecise term - it can include anything from 600 MHz UHF to 40 GHz mm wave, and widely varying modulation and power control schemes. The lower bands are probably not a problem, as we've been using some of them for quite a while, though not on our persons. The mm-wave and THz stuff really is a huge unknown. One problem is that these technologies don't ever get seriously tested for biological effects: They just get deployed due to industry/govt/carrier/market pressure, and by the time we have enough data to even know therer might be a danger (viz, the GSM study above), we're already experimenting on the population as test subjects for the next generation of risk. At least as much as the frequency, the modulation method seems to matter, too, with the very sharp-edged full-power square waves of TSM/GSM type signals probably being considerably worse than the noise-like CDMA, for instance. (IMO, there is probably no current (4G/5G) LTE technology that is nearly as safe as CDMA.) More recent research does seem to show that there are RF health effects that are NOT related to heating, but heating is the only thing any of the gov't/industry "RF safety" regs cover. This really is one of those areas where an honest person is forced to recognize that we have no idea what we don't know. RF and biology is a barely studied field, yet we know that many (most? all?) living things do have biophoton systems that we don't understand, and have largely ignored. 5G could be heinously dangerous, or relatively benign. So the answer to your question is no, there isn't (much) solid evidence yet that 5G is dangerous, and we won't really know for many years. But neither is there any actual evidence that it is safe and harmless...

sinak 7y ago
I think the modulations schemes are largely the same across the board for 5G. Also 4G LTE and 5G signal waveforms both look a lot like CDMA.

tangent-man 7y ago

This page seems to have a fair few links to legit scientific studies on the dangers of 5G and related technologies. https://ehtrust.org/science/cell-towers-and-cell-antennae/compilation-of-research-studies-on-cell-tower-radiation-and-health/ https://ehtrust.org/science/cell-towers-and-cell-antennae/co... I don't think it's a simple matter of: non-ionizing radiotion=safe.

runjake 7y ago

Pro-tip: this happened when EDGE, 3G, and 4G were released and in all of the above cases, were debunked.

rs23296008n1 7y ago
https://www.chicagotribune.com/investigations/ct-cell-phone-radiation-testing-20190821-72qgu4nzlfda5kyuhteiieh4da-story.html https://www.chicagotribune.com/investigations/ct-cell-phone-... Not so sure they were. The testing wasn't exactly great and compliance in the real world is... less than realistic.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

buboard 7y ago

no but we also need evidence that it's useful

freehunter 7y ago
I’d agree with that. I keep seeing headlines like “5g will enable the IoT” and “5g will take AI to the next level” but I have yet to see what specifically about 5g makes that claim any more true than 4g or 3g or EDGE. We haven’t even gotten the full speed we were promised with 4g.

tangent-man 7y ago

In my opinion your better off asking this question on a biomedical forum as Computer Programmers and Electronics Engineers seem to have a conflict of interest regarding this for some reason.

mrtonypino 7y ago

Not a scientific study, but a notable anecdote that struck me a while ago. Firefighters in SF reported a host of symptoms after a 5G unit was placed on their station: https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2018/01/25/consumerwatch-5g-cellphone-towers-signal-renewed-concerns-over-impacts-on-health/ https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2018/01/25/consumerwatch-5...