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I didn't claim they are heroes. I explicitly said that bad things do happen. I just want to stress that that doesn't negate the fact that good things also happe

I didn't claim they are heroes. I explicitly said that bad things do happen. I just want to stress that that doesn't negate the fact that good things also happen, and that all countries have good and bad things. Pointing out bad things is one thing; stereotyping and overly focusing only on the bad things is another. As for Muslim camps: forced reeducation and deradicalization, yes; concentration/killing/genocide: no. Try these: Daniel Dumbrill (Canadian living in China) on Uygurs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6grvHceQsQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6grvHceQsQ Kim Iversen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ff4YZBi4UTc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ff4YZBi4UTc CGTN discussion on Xinjiang situation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2yMjbB1q24 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2yMjbB1q24 (disclaimer: yes this is Chinese state media, believe whatever you want, but I think it's still worth it to have heard this viewpoint) And then there is also the fact that tens of Muslim countries officially approved of the Xinjiang situation. That's a bit odd, isn't it? Now let me be clear: I am not claiming it's all roses and sunshine over there. It isn't, there are real problems, and people are indeed forced into things (though not killed), which is not good. But this is a more complex, nuanced situation than "China doesn't like Muslims so they kill them all".

rorykoehler 7y ago
> "China doesn't like Muslims so they kill them all". You should know that it's the han way or death for the CCP. I don't understand the point of to your posts. Whataboutism is a poor excuse.
- FooBarWidget 7y ago
  The point is to provide a more balanced and fair view of things. Accusations of whataboutism is disingenuous, especially because I didn't even engage in it: I talked about China only. If anything, the parent I replied to is the one that talked about other nations. And there you go with the "or death" thing. Forced reeducation and detention, yes. But where is the proof that systematic killing is happening? All the proof of the latter I've seen so far come from US government or US-funded sources with poor research methodology (see for example https://thegrayzone.com/2020/03/26/forced-labor-china-us-nato-arms-industry-cold-war/amp/ https://thegrayzone.com/2020/03/26/forced-labor-china-us-nat...). And what do you say about the fact that a dozen of Muslim nations officially approve of China's conduct in Xinjiang?
  - rorykoehler 7y ago
    >I don't need to remind you of all the human rights violations by the US. Whataboutism >And what do you say about the fact that a dozen of Muslim nations officially approve of China's conduct in Xinjiang? That's completely irrelevant. Do the people being repressed approve because that's all that matters. And for the record they do not approve of their families being raped and basically held captive by CCP employees despite BS CCP propaganda to the contrary.
    - FooBarWidget 7y ago
      Whataboutism is dropping a dead cat on the table in order to steer the conversation towards that cat. I did not steer the conversation to the US, I stayed on the topic of China, therefore it is by definition not whataboutism. You seem to say that whataboutism is anything that mentions similar crimes committed by another party, implying that the actions of others are completely irrelevant. No. My criticism is not "China does no bad things". It is "China is not represented in a balanced manner and is not held to the same standards as other countries". Since the discussion is about standards, context absolutely matters. > That's completely irrelevant. Do the people being repressed approve because that's all that matters [...] their families being raped There you go with the "families being raped" thing. My point with the aprovals of Muslim countries is: maybe those allegations of rape are false? Like I said: forced reeducation and deradicalization, yes. Rape/killing/concentration/genocide, no. The Gray Zone articles show that claims of the latter rest on shaky sources that are either circular, or funded by US interests and agendas. We can debate whether forced reeducation and deradicalization is appropriate. But genocide/rape/murder/etc is false.

rorykoehler 7y ago

> "China doesn't like Muslims so they kill them all". You should know that it's the han way or death for the CCP. I don't understand the point of to your posts. Whataboutism is a poor excuse.

FooBarWidget 7y ago
The point is to provide a more balanced and fair view of things. Accusations of whataboutism is disingenuous, especially because I didn't even engage in it: I talked about China only. If anything, the parent I replied to is the one that talked about other nations. And there you go with the "or death" thing. Forced reeducation and detention, yes. But where is the proof that systematic killing is happening? All the proof of the latter I've seen so far come from US government or US-funded sources with poor research methodology (see for example https://thegrayzone.com/2020/03/26/forced-labor-china-us-nato-arms-industry-cold-war/amp/ https://thegrayzone.com/2020/03/26/forced-labor-china-us-nat...). And what do you say about the fact that a dozen of Muslim nations officially approve of China's conduct in Xinjiang?
- rorykoehler 7y ago
  >I don't need to remind you of all the human rights violations by the US. Whataboutism >And what do you say about the fact that a dozen of Muslim nations officially approve of China's conduct in Xinjiang? That's completely irrelevant. Do the people being repressed approve because that's all that matters. And for the record they do not approve of their families being raped and basically held captive by CCP employees despite BS CCP propaganda to the contrary.
  - FooBarWidget 7y ago
    Whataboutism is dropping a dead cat on the table in order to steer the conversation towards that cat. I did not steer the conversation to the US, I stayed on the topic of China, therefore it is by definition not whataboutism. You seem to say that whataboutism is anything that mentions similar crimes committed by another party, implying that the actions of others are completely irrelevant. No. My criticism is not "China does no bad things". It is "China is not represented in a balanced manner and is not held to the same standards as other countries". Since the discussion is about standards, context absolutely matters. > That's completely irrelevant. Do the people being repressed approve because that's all that matters [...] their families being raped There you go with the "families being raped" thing. My point with the aprovals of Muslim countries is: maybe those allegations of rape are false? Like I said: forced reeducation and deradicalization, yes. Rape/killing/concentration/genocide, no. The Gray Zone articles show that claims of the latter rest on shaky sources that are either circular, or funded by US interests and agendas. We can debate whether forced reeducation and deradicalization is appropriate. But genocide/rape/murder/etc is false.