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2) China trying to use soft power, but the whole drama feels fake. It is good that they are sending supplies (often faulty and not up to the quality, see dutch

2) China trying to use soft power, but the whole drama feels fake. It is good that they are sending supplies (often faulty and not up to the quality, see dutch story around this) but it doesn't feel genuine. I am curious what will be considered not fake and genuine support? Damned if they and damned if they don’t. AFAIK Dutch issued a article clarify the mistake they made which nobody seems to care. I don’t think any single nation can or will survive this alone unless they want to serve all connections to the world. So why it is not in China best interests to offer genuine support when they can? Not like a short sighted prick?

TeMPOraL 6y ago
> So why it is not in China best interests to offer genuine support when they can? It's definitely in their interest, because in terms of realpolitik, this is their golden opportunity one-up the US on the world stage, possibly even making Europe more aligned with them than with the States.
- toomuchtodo 6y ago
  Turns out everyone is just flailing and drunk on the dance floor, geopolitically.
  - TeMPOraL 6y ago
    I just hope they stay away from their respective red button consoles.
- systemvoltage 6y ago
  All democratic nations should get together and invest in manufacturing. If democracy falls, the treaty would asymetrically punish those that give up rights and freedom of their people.
systemvoltage 6y ago
There are a ton of sources here: https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/china-floods-europe-defective-covid-19-fighting-medical-equipment https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/china-floods-europe-d... China is trying the same thing that US did for many decades after WWII - to rally up global support through humanitarian aid: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_foreign_aid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_foreign_aid The problem is that the whole thing feels fake for 2 reasons (this is my personal opinion): 1) They are an authoritarian state using soft power for a democratic nation (Italy, Netherlands) - there is a real conflict of interest. 2) It is "pull" rather than "push" when it comes to soft power. You cannot muscle your way through it. As a superpower, you need to influence other nations such that those nations "want" to collaborate and be influenced - leading by example, helping them gain foothold after the catastrophy, long term investments in shared interests, etc. You can't buy your way into it. IMO - China has a branding and goodwill problem :-). You're seeing that in HK. People outside of this propaganda sphere have no trust in the CCP.
- FooBarWidget 6y ago
  Those sources are not being honest. Yes countries initially claimed that kits and masks were defective. But later researches showed that countries made wrong orders because of haste, not understanding Chinese standards, etc. I already said elsewhere that the Dutch ordered wrong masks. In case of the Spanish: they ordered kits for testing whether a recovered patient had the virus, not for testing whether one is infected. Those sources are not being honest because they still present the initial claims as the final truth. No word about later research results that invalidate those claims. China has now put in stricter export regulations in order to ensure that quality is as expected. But not much mention of that in mainstream western media either. As for pull rather than push: did the Chinese force aid on countries? No: countries accepted and allowed aid on their own will. In my opinion, this "pull vs push" perception is based on prejudice that China must be pushing something, rather than what is actually happening. Sources: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22825391 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22825391
  - the-dude 6y ago
    Sources please ( I am Dutch and I am surprised about your claims ).
    - FooBarWidget 6y ago
      Let op! Niet elk mondmasker geeft voldoende bescherming tegen corona! -- Explains the different Chinese standards -- https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/let-op-niet-elk-mondmasker-geeft-bescherming-tegen-sasburg-%E9%87%91%E6%B5%B7%E8%BE%BE-/ https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/let-op-niet-elk-mondmasker-ge... Trouw -- "Als gevolg van de tekorten zijn de criteria voor het gebruik van de mondmaskers verlaagd" (because of the shortages, they lowered the standards for masks, making it easier to purchase the wrong thing) -- https://www.trouw.nl/politiek/ministerie-van-volksgezondheid-moet-halsoverkop-onveilige-chinese-mondkapjes-terughalen~bf32ae12/ https://www.trouw.nl/politiek/ministerie-van-volksgezondheid... An analysis of the Chinese standards: https://twitter.com/Gpzy4/status/1244437584815828993?s=20 https://twitter.com/Gpzy4/status/1244437584815828993?s=20 and https://www.igj.nl/actueel/nieuws/2020/03/23/mondmaskers-uit-china-en-vs-gelijkwaardig-aan-europese https://www.igj.nl/actueel/nieuws/2020/03/23/mondmaskers-uit... Chinese side of the investigation (believe what you will): https://twitter.com/PRCAmbNL/status/1245739420969570304?s=20 https://twitter.com/PRCAmbNL/status/1245739420969570304?s=20 China has now introduced export regulations to prevent these incidents from happening again: https://twitter.com/ZichenWanghere/status/1245132820160315394 https://twitter.com/ZichenWanghere/status/124513282016031539...
DiogenesKynikos 6y ago
The issue with faulty PPE is that demand has surged and tons of Chinese factories are trying to retool to meet that demand. At the same time, international demand for other types of goods is dropping off a cliff, so Chinese factories have an even greater incentive to retool and produce PPE. With so many inexperienced manufacturers and such a rush to get to market, quality suffers. There are also all sorts of unscrupulous middlemen and faudsters who are taking advantage of the crisis to sell non-existent, mislabeled or shoddy supplies. Buyers are desperate to obtain PPE quickly, and are willing to spend enormous amounts to get it, so it's a seller's market and fraud is easy. There's an interesting account of the current situation here: [1]. Allowing foreigners to get defrauded is bad for China's brand, so the government recently (in the last few days) issued new regulations on exports of medical equipment.[2] The regulations should improve quality, but will also make it more difficult to obtain PPE from China. Pick your poison: more PPE with poor quality control, or less PPE with better quality control. 1. https://www.chinalawblog.com/2020/03/buying-face-masks-and-other-ppe-from-china-not-for-the-faint-of-heart.html https://www.chinalawblog.com/2020/03/buying-face-masks-and-o... 2. https://www.chinalawblog.com/2020/04/buying-face-masks-and-other-ppe-from-china-just-got-a-lot-tougher.html https://www.chinalawblog.com/2020/04/buying-face-masks-and-o...
- blackrock 6y ago
  > The regulations should improve quality, but will also make it more difficult to obtain PPE from China. This is actually a great idea! We should all be finally supporting this. People have been complaining for the past 20 years of poor quality from China made goods. But, what do they expect? They want to buy a $1 USD dollar item, and expect it to be as good quality as a $10 USD dollar item. What kind of moron failed at basic math, that they can't understand this? By having all China made goods be labeled as: "Made in China", then you mix the crap with the spectacular. It tarnishes the national brand. There needs to be more distinction. The China government, should now create 2 or 3 classes. 1) High Quality Products, certified by the China Government 2) International Products, certified by foreign companies 3) Low Quality Products, not certified by anyone, so buy it at your own damn risk, and don't blame China for it This can actually help shift poor products to other countries. Then, the new "Made in OtherCountry" products, can be known as the crap products. Or, every country should probably do this, if they want to avoid being known as a low quality manufacturer.
str33t_punk 6y ago
One reason people don’t trust China’s aid is that the shortage is caused by China. They bought up the worlds supply of PPE (over 2 billion masks) and nationalized factories owned by foreign companies (such as 3m) so their masks produced stay internal. It’s almost as if I cornered the food market and then when people were starving I start selling them food but disguising it as a loving donation. People can see through that
- pinkfoot 6y ago
  Nonsense. Here [1] is a fine article of an all-American company in Texas that is too nervous to get back into the business of making masks since they lost a ton of money and had to lay off over 100 staff when demand vanished after the last SARS panic. They still have the equipment and know-how. They just don't trust the market. Not a single Chinese government official involved in this sad saga. [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/02/15/coronavirus-mask-shortage-texas-manufacturing/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/02/15/coronavir...
  - viklove 6y ago
    Just like with oil, any industry can be gamed if a single player accumulates a massive stockpile of a commodity, then floods the market to drive prices down and make production unprofitable for competitors.
rfoo 6y ago
Shhh, just join us, "China is bad" is all you had to say, don't waste your own time.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
lemontruth 6y ago
For instance this makes it fake: "Unsurprisingly, Sweden has received no assistance from China. Instead, one of the country’s hospitals had to secure philanthropic funding to buy Chinese medical gear. Sweden happens to be China’s European bête noire, the result of its support for the imprisoned Hong Kong bookseller Gui Minhai, who became a Swedish citizen in the 1990s." "Though an airplane would reach the desperate Spaniards (some 85,000 coronavirus infections, more than 7,000 deaths) much faster, Beijing made sure that the Chinese supplies currently heading for Spain would travel by train along the Belt and Road route, a journey that takes 17 days." https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/03/30/russia-china-coronaviru.. https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/03/30/russia-china-coronaviru.... "Some propaganda campaigns are more brazen still. According to recent analysis, 46% of tweets using the hashtag #forzaCinaeItalia, which translates as “come on China and Italy,” were generated by automated bots. For #grazieCina, meaning “Thanks China,” it was 37%. China’s Foreign Ministry Spokeswoman Hua even posted a video on Twitter of Italians in Rome applauding health workers at noon from their balconies—but dubbed with the Chinese national anthem and claiming, spuriously, they were chanting “Grazie, Cina!”" https://time.com/5814940/china-mask-diplomacy-falters/ https://time.com/5814940/china-mask-diplomacy-falters/

TeMPOraL 6y ago

> So why it is not in China best interests to offer genuine support when they can? It's definitely in their interest, because in terms of realpolitik, this is their golden opportunity one-up the US on the world stage, possibly even making Europe more aligned with them than with the States.

toomuchtodo 6y ago
Turns out everyone is just flailing and drunk on the dance floor, geopolitically.
- TeMPOraL 6y ago
  I just hope they stay away from their respective red button consoles.
systemvoltage 6y ago
All democratic nations should get together and invest in manufacturing. If democracy falls, the treaty would asymetrically punish those that give up rights and freedom of their people.

systemvoltage 6y ago

There are a ton of sources here: https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/china-floods-europe-defective-covid-19-fighting-medical-equipment https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/china-floods-europe-d... China is trying the same thing that US did for many decades after WWII - to rally up global support through humanitarian aid: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_foreign_aid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_foreign_aid The problem is that the whole thing feels fake for 2 reasons (this is my personal opinion): 1) They are an authoritarian state using soft power for a democratic nation (Italy, Netherlands) - there is a real conflict of interest. 2) It is "pull" rather than "push" when it comes to soft power. You cannot muscle your way through it. As a superpower, you need to influence other nations such that those nations "want" to collaborate and be influenced - leading by example, helping them gain foothold after the catastrophy, long term investments in shared interests, etc. You can't buy your way into it. IMO - China has a branding and goodwill problem :-). You're seeing that in HK. People outside of this propaganda sphere have no trust in the CCP.

FooBarWidget 6y ago
Those sources are not being honest. Yes countries initially claimed that kits and masks were defective. But later researches showed that countries made wrong orders because of haste, not understanding Chinese standards, etc. I already said elsewhere that the Dutch ordered wrong masks. In case of the Spanish: they ordered kits for testing whether a recovered patient had the virus, not for testing whether one is infected. Those sources are not being honest because they still present the initial claims as the final truth. No word about later research results that invalidate those claims. China has now put in stricter export regulations in order to ensure that quality is as expected. But not much mention of that in mainstream western media either. As for pull rather than push: did the Chinese force aid on countries? No: countries accepted and allowed aid on their own will. In my opinion, this "pull vs push" perception is based on prejudice that China must be pushing something, rather than what is actually happening. Sources: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22825391 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22825391
- the-dude 6y ago
  Sources please ( I am Dutch and I am surprised about your claims ).
  - FooBarWidget 6y ago
    Let op! Niet elk mondmasker geeft voldoende bescherming tegen corona! -- Explains the different Chinese standards -- https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/let-op-niet-elk-mondmasker-geeft-bescherming-tegen-sasburg-%E9%87%91%E6%B5%B7%E8%BE%BE-/ https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/let-op-niet-elk-mondmasker-ge... Trouw -- "Als gevolg van de tekorten zijn de criteria voor het gebruik van de mondmaskers verlaagd" (because of the shortages, they lowered the standards for masks, making it easier to purchase the wrong thing) -- https://www.trouw.nl/politiek/ministerie-van-volksgezondheid-moet-halsoverkop-onveilige-chinese-mondkapjes-terughalen~bf32ae12/ https://www.trouw.nl/politiek/ministerie-van-volksgezondheid... An analysis of the Chinese standards: https://twitter.com/Gpzy4/status/1244437584815828993?s=20 https://twitter.com/Gpzy4/status/1244437584815828993?s=20 and https://www.igj.nl/actueel/nieuws/2020/03/23/mondmaskers-uit-china-en-vs-gelijkwaardig-aan-europese https://www.igj.nl/actueel/nieuws/2020/03/23/mondmaskers-uit... Chinese side of the investigation (believe what you will): https://twitter.com/PRCAmbNL/status/1245739420969570304?s=20 https://twitter.com/PRCAmbNL/status/1245739420969570304?s=20 China has now introduced export regulations to prevent these incidents from happening again: https://twitter.com/ZichenWanghere/status/1245132820160315394 https://twitter.com/ZichenWanghere/status/124513282016031539...

DiogenesKynikos 6y ago

The issue with faulty PPE is that demand has surged and tons of Chinese factories are trying to retool to meet that demand. At the same time, international demand for other types of goods is dropping off a cliff, so Chinese factories have an even greater incentive to retool and produce PPE. With so many inexperienced manufacturers and such a rush to get to market, quality suffers. There are also all sorts of unscrupulous middlemen and faudsters who are taking advantage of the crisis to sell non-existent, mislabeled or shoddy supplies. Buyers are desperate to obtain PPE quickly, and are willing to spend enormous amounts to get it, so it's a seller's market and fraud is easy. There's an interesting account of the current situation here: [1]. Allowing foreigners to get defrauded is bad for China's brand, so the government recently (in the last few days) issued new regulations on exports of medical equipment.[2] The regulations should improve quality, but will also make it more difficult to obtain PPE from China. Pick your poison: more PPE with poor quality control, or less PPE with better quality control. 1. https://www.chinalawblog.com/2020/03/buying-face-masks-and-other-ppe-from-china-not-for-the-faint-of-heart.html https://www.chinalawblog.com/2020/03/buying-face-masks-and-o... 2. https://www.chinalawblog.com/2020/04/buying-face-masks-and-other-ppe-from-china-just-got-a-lot-tougher.html https://www.chinalawblog.com/2020/04/buying-face-masks-and-o...

blackrock 6y ago
> The regulations should improve quality, but will also make it more difficult to obtain PPE from China. This is actually a great idea! We should all be finally supporting this. People have been complaining for the past 20 years of poor quality from China made goods. But, what do they expect? They want to buy a $1 USD dollar item, and expect it to be as good quality as a $10 USD dollar item. What kind of moron failed at basic math, that they can't understand this? By having all China made goods be labeled as: "Made in China", then you mix the crap with the spectacular. It tarnishes the national brand. There needs to be more distinction. The China government, should now create 2 or 3 classes. 1) High Quality Products, certified by the China Government 2) International Products, certified by foreign companies 3) Low Quality Products, not certified by anyone, so buy it at your own damn risk, and don't blame China for it This can actually help shift poor products to other countries. Then, the new "Made in OtherCountry" products, can be known as the crap products. Or, every country should probably do this, if they want to avoid being known as a low quality manufacturer.

str33t_punk 6y ago

One reason people don’t trust China’s aid is that the shortage is caused by China. They bought up the worlds supply of PPE (over 2 billion masks) and nationalized factories owned by foreign companies (such as 3m) so their masks produced stay internal. It’s almost as if I cornered the food market and then when people were starving I start selling them food but disguising it as a loving donation. People can see through that

pinkfoot 6y ago
Nonsense. Here [1] is a fine article of an all-American company in Texas that is too nervous to get back into the business of making masks since they lost a ton of money and had to lay off over 100 staff when demand vanished after the last SARS panic. They still have the equipment and know-how. They just don't trust the market. Not a single Chinese government official involved in this sad saga. [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/02/15/coronavirus-mask-shortage-texas-manufacturing/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/02/15/coronavir...
- viklove 6y ago
  Just like with oil, any industry can be gamed if a single player accumulates a massive stockpile of a commodity, then floods the market to drive prices down and make production unprofitable for competitors.

rfoo 6y ago

Shhh, just join us, "China is bad" is all you had to say, don't waste your own time.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

lemontruth 6y ago

For instance this makes it fake: "Unsurprisingly, Sweden has received no assistance from China. Instead, one of the country’s hospitals had to secure philanthropic funding to buy Chinese medical gear. Sweden happens to be China’s European bête noire, the result of its support for the imprisoned Hong Kong bookseller Gui Minhai, who became a Swedish citizen in the 1990s." "Though an airplane would reach the desperate Spaniards (some 85,000 coronavirus infections, more than 7,000 deaths) much faster, Beijing made sure that the Chinese supplies currently heading for Spain would travel by train along the Belt and Road route, a journey that takes 17 days." https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/03/30/russia-china-coronaviru.. https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/03/30/russia-china-coronaviru.... "Some propaganda campaigns are more brazen still. According to recent analysis, 46% of tweets using the hashtag #forzaCinaeItalia, which translates as “come on China and Italy,” were generated by automated bots. For #grazieCina, meaning “Thanks China,” it was 37%. China’s Foreign Ministry Spokeswoman Hua even posted a video on Twitter of Italians in Rome applauding health workers at noon from their balconies—but dubbed with the Chinese national anthem and claiming, spuriously, they were chanting “Grazie, Cina!”" https://time.com/5814940/china-mask-diplomacy-falters/ https://time.com/5814940/china-mask-diplomacy-falters/