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I'm not going to tackle #1 other than to say I do agree that health insurance shouldn't be provided by your employer. But for #2, you seem to be asserting that

• ogre_codes 7y ago
  > But for #2, you seem to be asserting that there is some method by which it is possible to determine that a particular salary/wage is "fair" and that "fair" wage must be mandated for all people. We have a nationally agreed minimum wage. Expecting that the average person doing a gig job would be able to earn that minimum wage plus expenses is not unreasonable. Since gig type employers, this base wage would need to be 50% higher than minimum wage to account for other expenses paid by employers. (employment taxes being the biggie)
  • bhupy 7y ago
    The national agreed minimum wage is $7.25/hour. Every Uber/Lyft driver earns well in excess of that.
    • reaperducer 7y ago
      Every Uber/Lyft driver earns well in excess of that. No. For most, it's not even close. The only way to make that kind of money was to collect kickbacks from bringing tourists to strip clubs. Plus, many states have a minimum wage much higher than $7.25/hour. Source: Drove for Uber for eight months.
      • bhupy 7y ago
        Sure, in some states like CA and NY, Uber drivers earn closer to $15/hour. Anecdotal Source: I've driven Uber too. Actual Source: https://www.ridester.com/how-much-do-uber-drivers-make/ https://www.ridester.com/how-much-do-uber-drivers-make/
        • sethammons 7y ago
          Note that the $15/hr figure from the source includes tips, but does not count gas, insurance, nor vehicle wear and tear
          • bhupy 7y ago
            It includes gas, maintenance, and insurance.
            • masonic 7y ago
              It can't properly do so because those costs vary tremendously by vehicle, location, etc.
    • CydeWeys 7y ago
      Source? I've heard the opposite from some drivers.
      • bhupy 7y ago
        Source: https://www.ridester.com/how-much-do-uber-drivers-make/ https://www.ridester.com/how-much-do-uber-drivers-make/ > Full-time UberX drivers can expect to earn nearly $590 per week after tips when working 40 hours in a week. Beyond the aforementioned factors — location, surge, and tips — weekly earnings can also be heavily impacted by the amount of trip requests you receive throughout a seven-day period. > Uber drivers are known to make slightly less than Lyft drivers. We’ve found that a standard Lyft driver makes about $17.50 per hour, which is nearly $3 more than what Uber drivers make. Of course, your average Lyft wage (just like your average Uber wage) will vary based on location, how much you take advantage of promotions on Lyft, and how much you earn in tips. > It’s a general rule of thumb for the rideshare industry to budget roughly 20 percent of the total ride fare amount for ride-related expenses. At that rate – hypothetically speaking, after factoring in pick-up, drop-off, and dead time – the UberX driver could estimate to make somewhere in the neighborhood of $15–$20 an hour if they were to get two similar rides each hour they drove. [1] https://www.ridester.com/how-much-do-uber-drivers-make/ https://www.ridester.com/how-much-do-uber-drivers-make/
        • sfkdjf9j3j 7y ago
          It doesn't look like this takes depreciation or gas into account, but the site is like 75% advertisements so I might have missed it.
          • bhupy 7y ago
            From the article: "These expenses include: Insurance: This includes personal insurance and a rideshare or commercial insurance policy. Car/lease payments: The amounts a driver pays to drive their vehicle. Drivers either own their own vehicles or lease one from Uber or a third-party provider. Tolls, license, permit fees: Drivers pay for all of these fees. Passengers pay an added surcharge when drivers must incur toll fees. Gas: Since drivers are considered independent contractors, they must pay for their own gas, and are not reimbursed. Vehicle maintenance: Drivers are responsible for their own vehicle maintenance and upkeep. They will be reimbursed if a rider damages their vehicle, however."
    • ogre_codes 7y ago
      > Every Uber/Lyft driver earns well in excess of that. If you don't account for travel time between gigs, expenses, or additional taxes, they might, but you can't Uber if you don't fill up your gas tank and change the oil in your car.
      • bhupy 7y ago
        > Travel time between gigs No gig in the world covers that. > Expenses On average, after vehicle expenses, Uber drivers make as low as $15/hour[1], and as high as $20/hour. And this is also assuming that one concedes the argument that gigs ought to reimburse expenses, which isn't true for most contract work. https://www.ridester.com/how-much-do-uber-drivers-make https://www.ridester.com/how-much-do-uber-drivers-make
        • gamblor956 7y ago
          In most contract work, expenses incurred by the contractor to fulfill the contract are almost always included in the contractor's invoice.
          • mirimir 7y ago
            That was somewhat my experience. It was always the case where travel and lodging were required. Say, for attending depositions. But I did buy my own machines, and pay for electricity to run them. And I didn't invoice for maintaining stuff. So was that just my own naivete? And now that I think of it, buying better gear hurt me, in that it took less time to do stuff. But on the other hand, it allowed me to handle larger datasets, which made me more attractive.
            • gamblor956 7y ago
              Buying gear for use on multiple contracts is different from buying supplies to use executing a contract for a single customer. You can invoice the latter to the customer; you must depreciate or deduct the former on your tax return. OTOH, some customers are willing to pay for contractors' gear even if it would be used on other customers, for example, if they require you to use upgraded equipment instead of the equipment you already own.
• Barrin92 7y ago
  >there is some method by which it is possible to determine that a particular salary/wage is "fair" and that "fair" wage there is one and that is relatively simple, it's what people negotiate under symmetric information. The behaviour of some full-time uber drivers is simply irrational and that is effectively being exploited by companies like Uber. If one includes the cost of operating and maintaining the vehicle, not to mention the depreciation, the risk of losing work if it actually breaks down and so on you're not arriving at a salary that is even remotely sane or competitive. And sure you can say fuck them, they know best QED and so on but it's simply not sustainable. Just look at who has to pick up the cost during the corona crisis now because these people are effectively broke if they can't drive, it's everyone else. In the name of flexibility we are loading social responsibility of regular employers onto the public because drivers overestimate the benefits and underestimate the risks and companies like Uber want to line their pockets.
  • bhupy 7y ago
    > The behaviour of some full-time uber drivers is simply irrational and that is effectively being exploited by companies like Uber. Irrational to you. > If one includes the cost of operating and maintaining the vehicle, not to mention the depreciation, the risk of losing work if it actually breaks down and so on you're not arriving at a salary that is even remotely sane or competitive. There are a lot of reasons why people still make the economic decision to drive on ridesharing platforms, even considering all of this. 1) If the car is a sunk cost (I.e. they would have owned the car, Uber or not), then it isn't accurate to include its cost in the equation. 2) Some people will happily trade-off the slightly less competitive pay in return for not having a boss and not having to clock into a job. > Just look at who has to pick up the cost during the corona crisis now because these people are effectively broke if they can't drive, it's everyone else. This is literally true everywhere in the world. Coronavirus is a once-in-a-generation black swan event, and most governments' responses have been mass shut-downs of the economy and forced unemployment. The taxpayers foot the bill for most workers, employee or not. "Employment" status would not have changed that. > In the name of flexibility we are loading social responsibility of regular employers onto the public because drivers overestimate the benefits and underestimate the risks and companies like Uber want to line their pockets. This is how safety nets work. In many developed countries, health insurance is decoupled from employees and taxpayers foot the bill. Would you not consider this an abrogation of responsibility of Danish/Canadian employers to provide benefits for their workers?
• notatoad 7y ago
  >Are you asserting that all those people are incapable of determining what is best for them? If you give somebody a choice between working a little bit and not having a job at all, most people will take the little bit of work they're offered. The "people continue to take these jobs" argument is only valid if there's an abundance of other jobs available, which there is not. Whether or not a job is underpaid is not determined by whether or not somebody is willing to do it for that amount of money. If people aren't being paid a living wage, they're being underpaid, and their wages will have to be subsidized by social assistance programs if their basic needs are going to be met.
  • AnthonyMouse 7y ago
    > If you give somebody a choice between working a little bit and not having a job at all, most people will take the little bit of work they're offered. The "people continue to take these jobs" argument is only valid if there's an abundance of other jobs available, which there is not. Prior to the coronavirus, unemployment in the US was at historic lows. That is likely to return rather swiftly once there is no longer a pandemic suppressing economic activity, especially given the amount of stimulus being applied. So there apparently are other jobs available in general, since most everybody has one (and only a very small percentage of those are working for Uber). > Whether or not a job is underpaid is not determined by whether or not somebody is willing to do it for that amount of money. If people aren't being paid a living wage, they're being underpaid, and their wages will have to be subsidized by social assistance programs if their basic needs are going to be met. They also have to be subsidized if they're unemployed, right? That appears to be the major flaw in your argument. If there are other jobs available then they have other options and are choosing this for a reason (e.g. flexibility), but if there aren't then the alternative, if this work disappears because it can't justify higher compensation, is unemployment. Which is both worse for the worker and requires even more subsidy from the taxpayer. So either way it's better that more flexible but lower paying work be available.
• neilwilson 7y ago
  Systemically there are always fewer jobs than people that want them as a matter of policy. Businesses hire only when there is profit to be had whereas people need a job every day to eat. If you change the system so that there is always an alternative job available - and correct the power asymmetry so that individuals can say “no deal” too then wages will correct themselves. And very likely most gig jobs would disappear as uneconomic.
  • malandrew 7y ago
    > Systemically there are always fewer jobs than people that want them as a matter of policy. This is far from the truth. In pretty much every bull market we end up with plenty of unfilled jobs. Even in many bear markets, there is no lack of unfilled jobs. The problem is the mismatch between skills and desires of those that want a job and the skills and flexibility requirements of the jobs being offered. A job may require skills not many people have. A job may require you to work in a place or at a time you don't want to work. But to claim that there is a lack of jobs is just wrong. The problem here is that some jobs offer flexibility and only require a bit more than average human functioning pre-frontal pre-frontal cortex so you can handle doing something like move something from point A to point B. For a job like this, with the benefit of flexibility and the low skill requirements, it's totally reasonable to supply and demand to drive price down as you don't need to pay as much to find people capable and willing to do the job cheaply because it is an attractive job for them. If you're willing to learn skills and willing to go to where the job is being offered and work when the job needs to be done, you'll find work that supports you.