6 ms·

Maximator: European signals intelligence cooperation, from a Dutch perspective

58 points by brakmic 7y ago

samizdis 7y ago
A sigint alliance established after meetings in a pub and named for a brand of beer. That is charmingly comforting.
arethuza 7y ago
I'm in the middle of reading Richard Aldrich's book on GCHQ - which I thought might be a bit dry but is actually completely fascinating. Sigint is a remarkably devious business e.g. during the Falkland's War the UK got live information on Argentinian ship locations from, of all places, Norwegian intelligence who obtained it by hacking into Soviet spy satellites.
- cryptonector 7y ago
  I'd like to read about that! Is that described in the book you mentioned, or elsewhere? The UK also got early warning of air attacks from Chilean radar installations in Tierra del Fuego or thereabouts.
  - arethuza 7y ago
    Yes - that was from that book.
ganzuul 7y ago
We need to know if these are organs for circumventing the law of its member countries by spying on each other when spying on their own citizens is illegal. Privacy is fundamental to democratic elections and enemies to democracy should not be tolerated.
- matheusmoreira 7y ago
  > We need to know if these are organs for circumventing the law of its member countries by spying on each other when spying on their own citizens is illegal. This is a fact according to Snowden's leaked documents. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes > Documents leaked by Snowden in 2013 revealed that the FVEY has been spying on one another's citizens and sharing the collected information with each other in order to circumvent restrictive domestic regulations on surveillance of citizens. If they don't care about the rights of their own citizens, there's no limit to how much damage they're willing to cause to foreigners.
chrismeller 7y ago
So the European equivalent of the Five Eyes?
itcrowd 7y ago
This is a fascinating revelation, the European equivalent of the Five Eyes. The author, by the way, is a Dutch professor of Security, Privacy and Identity at the Radboud University (Nijmegen). His website is here: http://www.cs.ru.nl/~bart/ http://www.cs.ru.nl/~bart/
- contingencies 7y ago
  Echelon was only finally and definitively unmasked with the publication of the European Parliament report in 2001. https://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-//EP//NONSGML+REPORT+A5-2001-0264+0+DOC+PDF+V0//EN https://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-//EP/... (Prior to that, the general public would certainly consider you a nutjob for discussing it.) The EU's historians have recently (2014) published an historical perspective on the writing and impact of that report, which is worth a read: https://www.europarl.europa.eu/EPRS/EPRS_STUDY_538877_AffaireEchelon-EN.pdf https://www.europarl.europa.eu/EPRS/EPRS_STUDY_538877_Affair... This is effectively real world history, not the crap you garner from mass media or would-have-you-believe books. Another great classic: the conspicuously missing history of SWIFT, with its own EU parliament discussions. PS. Aussies, Maximator is AUD$100/slab (12x500mL) @ https://www.purvisbeer.com.au/ https://www.purvisbeer.com.au/ + AUD$15 shipping (free pickup Melbourne)
pnathan 7y ago
Interesting. I wonder why this is being revealed, and why now, and who it serves.
- tpmx 7y ago
  A lot of old people are dying these days. Perhaps someone wanted this known before they passed away, for some reason.
- gwern 7y ago
  It mentions that the recent unveiling of CryptoAG implies Maximator exists. At a guess, because it's no longer secret, his Dutch sources wanted to boast about it.
jwandborg 7y ago
Some weird things I noticed: There are at least two typos in the abstract: #1 > [...] Danmark, Sweden, Germany [...] Should be "Denmark" # 2 > [...] crypto analisis [...] Should be "analysis" There's a "cryptanalysis" later in the article. The author's list of papers: http://www.cs.ru.nl/~bart/PAPERS/index.html http://www.cs.ru.nl/~bart/PAPERS/index.html doesn't mention this article, even though it mentions another not-yet-published paper.
- NotSammyHagar 7y ago
  I believe Danish people and some others use the word "Danmark" with an 'a' for their country. Wouldn't that explain this?
throwawaymanbot 7y ago
Co-Operation happens in Europe.. Quelle Suprise.

58 points by brakmic 7y ago

A sigint alliance established after meetings in a pub and named for a brand of beer. That is charmingly comforting.

I'm in the middle of reading Richard Aldrich's book on GCHQ - which I thought might be a bit dry but is actually completely fascinating. Sigint is a remarkably devious business e.g. during the Falkland's War the UK got live information on Argentinian ship locations from, of all places, Norwegian intelligence who obtained it by hacking into Soviet spy satellites.

cryptonector 7y ago
I'd like to read about that! Is that described in the book you mentioned, or elsewhere? The UK also got early warning of air attacks from Chilean radar installations in Tierra del Fuego or thereabouts.
- arethuza 7y ago
  Yes - that was from that book.

ganzuul 7y ago

We need to know if these are organs for circumventing the law of its member countries by spying on each other when spying on their own citizens is illegal. Privacy is fundamental to democratic elections and enemies to democracy should not be tolerated.

matheusmoreira 7y ago
> We need to know if these are organs for circumventing the law of its member countries by spying on each other when spying on their own citizens is illegal. This is a fact according to Snowden's leaked documents. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes > Documents leaked by Snowden in 2013 revealed that the FVEY has been spying on one another's citizens and sharing the collected information with each other in order to circumvent restrictive domestic regulations on surveillance of citizens. If they don't care about the rights of their own citizens, there's no limit to how much damage they're willing to cause to foreigners.

chrismeller 7y ago

So the European equivalent of the Five Eyes?

itcrowd 7y ago

This is a fascinating revelation, the European equivalent of the Five Eyes. The author, by the way, is a Dutch professor of Security, Privacy and Identity at the Radboud University (Nijmegen). His website is here: http://www.cs.ru.nl/~bart/ http://www.cs.ru.nl/~bart/

contingencies 7y ago
Echelon was only finally and definitively unmasked with the publication of the European Parliament report in 2001. https://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-//EP//NONSGML+REPORT+A5-2001-0264+0+DOC+PDF+V0//EN https://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-//EP/... (Prior to that, the general public would certainly consider you a nutjob for discussing it.) The EU's historians have recently (2014) published an historical perspective on the writing and impact of that report, which is worth a read: https://www.europarl.europa.eu/EPRS/EPRS_STUDY_538877_AffaireEchelon-EN.pdf https://www.europarl.europa.eu/EPRS/EPRS_STUDY_538877_Affair... This is effectively real world history, not the crap you garner from mass media or would-have-you-believe books. Another great classic: the conspicuously missing history of SWIFT, with its own EU parliament discussions. PS. Aussies, Maximator is AUD$100/slab (12x500mL) @ https://www.purvisbeer.com.au/ https://www.purvisbeer.com.au/ + AUD$15 shipping (free pickup Melbourne)

pnathan 7y ago

Interesting. I wonder why this is being revealed, and why now, and who it serves.

tpmx 7y ago
A lot of old people are dying these days. Perhaps someone wanted this known before they passed away, for some reason.
gwern 7y ago
It mentions that the recent unveiling of CryptoAG implies Maximator exists. At a guess, because it's no longer secret, his Dutch sources wanted to boast about it.

jwandborg 7y ago

Some weird things I noticed: There are at least two typos in the abstract: #1 > [...] Danmark, Sweden, Germany [...] Should be "Denmark" # 2 > [...] crypto analisis [...] Should be "analysis" There's a "cryptanalysis" later in the article. The author's list of papers: http://www.cs.ru.nl/~bart/PAPERS/index.html http://www.cs.ru.nl/~bart/PAPERS/index.html doesn't mention this article, even though it mentions another not-yet-published paper.

NotSammyHagar 7y ago
I believe Danish people and some others use the word "Danmark" with an 'a' for their country. Wouldn't that explain this?

throwawaymanbot 7y ago

Co-Operation happens in Europe.. Quelle Suprise.