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Yale Students Demand Automatic 'Pass' Due to Covid-19
- dillonmckay 7y agoor refund the tuition for the semester?
- whatshisface 7y agoIn contrast and great irony, my local community college has announced that they will go online and expect full completion as usual - and the students have accepted it, because of course the academic culture at a white label school for tradesmen and transfer students would be more rigorous, serious and refined than the one at a national pride.
- tengbretson 7y agoOf course! A community college is actually producing students that go on to perform the jobs they are being credentialed for. Having incompetent graduates would be a devastating blow to their reputation.
- chrisco255 7y agoYale bubble has just popped.
- duxup 7y agoAt least in my experience community college students mostly went home at the end of the day anyway. With colleges where the students live at school the process of trying to shift to doing the work at home in contrast to where they had more resources at school seems like it could be quite different.
- dillonmckay 7y agoI would have issue with this if I was using loans to finance that semester. I am not getting what I paid for initially, and I owe a debt that cannot be discharged in bankruptcy. Do the students get a partial refund since they are no longer paying for the facilities?
- whatshisface 7y agoDemanding a partial refund would be a reasonable thing to try and negotiate: the damage has to fall on someone and both parties have a right to defend their interests. Asking for a free pass, on the other hand, means asking for every other Yale graduate to pay a cost ("You went to Yale? The place with free passes?") while also not asking for the product they really paid for (education). It's a statement that the paper is more important to them than what the paper represents: a total and open admission of defeat by Goodhart's law.
- swiley 7y agoI loved my community college, I wasn’t there for long, only a couple semesters, but after I took calculus I felt like I had put in a lot of work and my life was going in a totally different direction. I actually ended up buying a hoodie from the college book store in the end and it’s pretty important to me, I don’t feel the same way about the university I graduated from (although I definitely had more fun there.)
- badrchoubai 7y agoPeople in privileged positions tend to take opportunity for granted.
- Mountain_Skies 7y agoGood luck passing Calculus II if you were given a passing grade in Calculus I without actually learning the material. There are plenty of other courses that will run into the same problem if their prereqs aren't actually mastered.
- dillonmckay 7y agoExactly. Not to mention, any decent hiring manager that knows of this event, if it does occur, would be more suspect of any graduate of Yale (if they attended during the academic period in question) versus an equivalent Ivy. As the article mentioned, campus is the great equalizer for students of different backgrounds, so give each student a check for the full retail cost of a semester’s tuition and expenses, paid from the school’s endowment, and remove the class from their transcript. [update] edited for clarity
- duxup 7y ago>if it does occur, would be more suspect of any graduate of Yale versus an equivalent Ivy Would they? Because this one thing might have happened one semester they would decide that individual is less qualified?
- dillonmckay 7y agoYes. You think there will be alot of folks to choose from?
- duxup 7y agoI'm not following, are you saying in this scenario there are a lot of ivy applications?
- dillonmckay 7y agoIn the reality of what is about to happen to our world and the US economy and job market, there will be many more job applications than jobs. I would rather hire the person that graduated from Yale a few years ago versus the one hopefully graduating next year, even for a fully remote position.
- chb 7y agoThis is how we wind up with a Jared Kushner in charge of the federal COVID-19 response
- ganstyles 7y agoHe is where he is because he married the eventual President's daughter, not because he got a free pass at top schools (though he did).
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- downerending 7y agoHard to know what's right, under the circumstances. At the same time, it seems like their degrees should have an asterisk, to be fair to full graduates.
- duxup 7y agoI'm not sure an asterisk really tells anyone about the critical thing....do they know this stuff? Can they do the job?
- dillonmckay 7y agoThe asterisk makes them suspect, deserved or otherwise, but it is a tarnish. That is the problem.
- downerending 7y agoA degree attests to what one has done, not what one can do.
- krupan 7y agoI know some BYU students and they were given the option to see their letter grade and decide whether to take the letter grade or a pass/fail for each class. D or F converts to fail, anything else is a pass. Neither changes your GPA.
- rch 7y agoETH is continuing online and limiting the downside risk of the next set of exams. That seems like a better approach to me.
- O_H_E 7y agoQuite similar in Waterloo. They also added a petition process for those who fail with special circumstances going on. For those who don't know, both are top-level schools in Switzerland and Canada.
- duxup 7y ago>According to Eileen Huang ’22, requiring undergraduates — many burdened by sickness, hectic home lives or living thousands of miles away from the University — to devote the same level of attention and focus to their classes as they would in the Elm City seems unfair. I think there is merit to this concern. I don't know if passing automaticly is the right choice but experiences durring these events can be quite wide ranging. Just for me I find that some my neighbors complain they are bored. Me, my kids are at home, I have to manage their schooling, I have to work, my wife needs to work...and the youngest needs constant attention. I've never had less time / sleep. Now students might not have kids but they too might have a great variety of challenges other students / professors don't have.
- dillonmckay 7y agoSome do. Some would otherwise be homeless. All walks of life attend college.
- 333c 7y agoTo me that's the most compelling argument: equity. Some students come from a background with very few resources and an unstable home environment, or no home to speak of. These students shouldn't be at an academic disadvantage because of a global pandemic.
- dillonmckay 7y agoI mean, I agree, they shouldn’t, but the reality is, they are. Now, what happens if this extends for multiple semesters? Are all the Ivy schools going to PASS/FAIL online until graduation?
- 333c 7y agoI'm not trying to get into a lengthy discussion so I'll leave it after this comment. > the reality is, they are. But Yale admins/faculty have the power to change that. Whether the change is worth it (and what the best course of action is) is a matter for debate. But I wouldn't say that the best course of action is to sit back and say "that's just the reality of the situation" when we have a capability to effect change. > Now, what happens if this extends for multiple semesters? > Are all the Ivy schools going to PASS/FAIL online until graduation? That's certainly not an ideal course of action, but (in my view) it may be what the Ivies are forced to do.
- ebg13 7y agoSo how does this compare to Harvard, where students expect an automatic A even without Covid-19?
- umvi 7y agoAt least at HLS there's not such thing as an 'A'. You can get an F, LP, P, H, or DS. DS is not equivalent to an A. DS is insanely hard to get. The professor can only give like 1 or 2 students in the entire class DS so you basically have to be top gun to consistently get DS.
- ebg13 7y agoHarvard College (the university's undergraduate arm) definitely gives As. Law schools are vocational programs. I'm not surprised it works differently there.
- hackandtrip 7y agoWhy would that be true? (Asking as a non-American)
- ebg13 7y agoObnoxious entitlement? Social pressure? Historical precedent? Why questions can't really be answered. But if you give someone a well-deserved B they cry in your office and then hammer you in their end-of-semester course review.
- hackandtrip 7y agoI asked as a complete ignorant on American grade practices, and your answer differs completely from my (EU) experience - especially because we give reviews before exam sessions.
- mmhsieh 7y agoThis will prepare them well for reality. Working adults, I am sure, will have their demands for the continuation of their livelihoods fully met by their employers, their landlords, and their mortgage providers.
- Talanes 7y agoIt sounds like you are advocating people not fight for their livelihood.
- rueynshard 7y agoExcept a lot of governments have indeed enacted policies that protect tenants and employees during this period.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- viklove 7y agoNothing is going to protect you from getting fired if you decide to just stop doing your job after they ask you to WFH.
- alpineidyll3 7y agoFile under: Universities are silly places.
- steve76 7y agoThere are ways to show initiative. Contribute research for one. Could be a mark of honor. Automatic pass sounds like Goldman buying a private jet with a shower when 2,000 people are dying a day.
- olliej 7y agoHow would this make sense? The degree and course grade indicates understanding the material and knowledge of your major. If you haven't been able to learn the material you shouldn't get a degree or grade that indicates otherwise. If they believe that the quality of education has reduced they should demand a refund, or they can drop the courses they can't handle so that they don't impact their GPA, and retake them once it's easier again.
- finolex1 7y agoFor context, MIT, Harvard and Stanford have all instituted mandatory pass-fail grading policies (in practice, this amounts virtually amounts to a guaranteed pass as well).
- rueynshard 7y agoColumbia, UC Berkeley and Dartmouth too. I think this move is gaining traction.
- 333c 7y agoStudents at my college did this too. Just about half of the student body signed the petition. Ultimately the faculty board that makes decisions about grading modes refused to enact this.
- paulie_a 7y agoThey paid for a service and did not receive it. Many have even been kicked out of housing. Sounds like one party broke the contract regarding tuition. Pass or not it really makes no difference. College degrees are losing prestigiousness so who cares. In five years post graduation it really means little. You don't go to college to learn you go there for the degree to get into that first door.
- viklove 7y agoWe truly live in such amazing times, where the principle of the transaction is more important than the achieved competency. This isn't Walmart, it's an education system. If they're not getting educated, the degree is completely meaningless.
- mcquade 7y agoExceptions set dangerous precedents.
- distantlyaway 7y agoI wouldn't want my doctor to be someone who got an auto pass on his/her exams.
- mcquade 7y agoExactly. Standards cannot be lowered everywhere. If you don’t have the knowledge to pass your examinations then take additional time to achieve proficiency.
- chrisco255 7y agoYour Yale degree isn't going to mean anything in the 21st century. Everything that can be learned there can be learned on YouTube for free.
- hackandtrip 7y agoHow can you be tested and kept accountable for what you are learning using YouTube? How accurate is the information that non-expert can fetch?
- chrisco255 7y agoSame way people do now without degrees? Screening in phases. Live interview or video interview. You can actually tell a decent amount about a candidate over the course of a few hours if you ask right questions.
- cosmiccatnap 7y agoThis. Only about half of current developers in the market have a 4 year degree in computer science.
- ziari 7y agoBefore we jump to conclusions... Undergraduates were forced off campus a few weeks ago. Imagine yourself in the shoes of an international student who left New Haven in a hurry. You're now required to attend online lectures at 3:00AM local time. Five nights a week. You don't have a reliable internet connection in your country. You lost your job when you left campus. You're missing out on office hours. You can't collaborate with classmates in the United States. You need to take care of at-risk relatives at home. You're in a state of heightened anxiety during a lock-down. Don't even think about taking a nap! Your next discussion seminar (with mandatory attendance) is in fifteen minutes... at 4:30AM! Now, is it really so unreasonable to ask the administration to relieve some of this pressure? We should empower students to seek knowledge without sacrificing their health and family obligations.
- viklove 7y agoRelieve pressure, sure. Free pass? What? I mean they still need to do the coursework. The school should refund their tuition and room/board, and allow them to complete the semester later.
- ziari 7y agoPass/fail grades are not factored into GPA calculations at Yale anyways. The idea behind a "universal pass" system is that it completely eliminates grades for the semester without leaving that section of the transcript empty. It's more akin to a participation trophy than an unmerited gold medal.
- xupybd 7y agoPerhaps they need to learn the life lesson that bad things happen. Sometimes it's really bad, really unfair. But you can always make the best of it. It'll be harder for them than others but they can demonstrate an ability to overcome and achieve during hard times. That'll be a huge personal confidence booster for future hard times.
- einpoklum 7y ago1. It's _some_ students demand automatic pass. 2. What students actually need IMHO is no tuition for this semester, and the opportunity for a do-over next semester (if the crisis is over by then). But that's more difficult to demand, so these people go for an easier, and lamer, alternative.
- hackandtrip 7y agoA lot of Italian universities took a week to rearrange their complete offering with online courses, allowing full theory + practice + projects lesson in virtual mode - exams solutions are being studied and pass/fail is out of the discussion. If low-funded Italian universities can do it, I wonder what's stopping the best universities like Yale with enormous quantity of money to do the same.
- taylodl 7y agoI had a professor who once quipped "education is the only product for which the consumer demands less than what they paid." The diploma is worthless without the knowledge that goes with it.