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We paid for that product. If they can't deliver the service, we are owed our money back. This would be fraud. Congress sells out the american people to corpo

We paid for that product. If they can't deliver the service, we are owed our money back. This would be fraud. Congress sells out the american people to corporations on these things. If revolution happens in the USA, it will be because congress and corporations pull this kind of corruption.

a3n 6y ago
No, if revolution happens in the USA it will be because politicians went too far in dividing us.
- jacquesm 6y ago
  Not as long as there is sports on tv and McDonalds is open. Oh, wait.
  - a3n 6y ago
    Bread and circus.
  - nostromo 6y ago
    Pot, liquor stores, and vape shops were all deemed essential businesses in Washington State. Turns out the true opiate of the people are... well, opiates and other drugs.
    - Analemma_ 6y ago
      This is an ignorant comment; there are entirely legitimate reasons why those stores are still open. Alcohol withdrawal can actually kill you, or at least put you in the hospital, and having to hospitalize a bunch of alcoholics is the last thing the system needs right now. People also use cannabis as a safer alternative to pain relief than actual opiates.
      - reaperducer 6y ago
        You missed one. What is the entirely legitimate reason why vape stores should be open?
        p1necone 6y ago
        Nicotine withdrawal won't kill you like alcohol can, but it sure fucking sucks. Taking away every source of joy from the populace during this could cause more harm than good. Also if you could buy cigarettes, but not vape supplies then a bunch of people would hop back on those.
        smabie 6y ago
        For the same reason that Chik-Fil-a is open: because people like it.
- ta999999171 6y ago
  Why wouldn't it be both?
usaar333 6y ago
There's all sorts of Force Majeure rules in life and contracts. e.g. I still have to pay for my kid's preschool she can't use. (Edit: Prepaid, not getting a refund) I'm not sympathetic to the airlines at all and think they should refund, but I don't think it is universally true that "can't deliver service = owed money back" in this pandemic.
- tantalor 6y ago
  Well, no, Force Majeure would give you an option to back out of your agreement with the preschool, including tuition. My understanding is Force Majeure rescinds the contract for Act of God (natural disaster) or Government (human-caused disaster). No contract means deposits and pre-payments would also revert. /ianal
  - eloff 6y ago
    Unless you prepaid. I got forced into taking an apartment rental I wanted to back out of when I got laid off because I made the mistake of paying promptly. I might have had a chance to fight it otherwise.
    - tantalor 6y ago
      Not necessarily... the common law concept of restitution requires that the parties be returned to their original, pre-contracting positions. In reality, this means that the parties must return any prepaid monies or deposits https://www.agg.com/news-insights/publications/your-event-is-cancelled-because-of-covid-19-breach-of-contract-or-excused-performance/ https://www.agg.com/news-insights/publications/your-event-is...
      - usaar333 6y ago
        I think you are copying the section of when there is no force majeur section. See this legal article covering schools "https://www.fisherphillips.com/resources-alerts-comprehensive-covid-19-strategy-plan-for-independent" https://www.fisherphillips.com/resources-alerts-comprehensiv... -- they aren't legally obligated to refund if they have a force majeur provision in their contract.
tomp 6y ago
It's a painful situation. There will be pain, suffering and A LOT OF economic loss. Somebody will have to pay for that loss. Guess who? The people! There's literally noone else to do it... how to distribute the burden? "fairly" (each person has a different idea what that means) ... at least people who afford air travel probably have a bit of money they can lose without suffering too much.
- whelming_wave 6y ago
  I’m sure the company will be able to suffer through the losses - and if it can’t, was it a viable business in the first place?
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - ksk 6y ago
    I don't think any business plan accounts for half of the worlds population suddenly not participating in the world economy.
    - jessaustin 6y ago
      Businesses with bad plans fail every day.
      - EpicEng 6y ago
        Any business plan that included "preparations for never before seen economic disruption due to global pandemic" would be hilariously bad.
        jessaustin 6y ago
        A plan that included saving rather than leverage would be well suited to many sorts of disruptions. You couldn't hire McKinsey to write it for you, however. Underlying all this whinging there seems to be a remarkable expectation that the world is supposed to be fair, and when it's not the taxpayer and the Fed should make it so. If the objects of all this fairness were human, I could see the point. However, you're talking about corporations, so there is no point.
nostromo 6y ago
They can and will deliver the service, on another flight, which is why they're giving you a flight voucher. Why is this controversial? Seems fair enough to me. I get the feeling people enjoy beating up on airlines because so many people pay the smallest amount possible, and then are shocked when they're not treated like first class passengers. People pay for McDonalds but expect fine dining.
- colejohnson66 6y ago
  Because even though I probably agreed to a trade in the terms of purchase, a rescheduled flight isn’t a great solution; sometimes a rescheduled flight can mean the difference between a vacation and nothing. If I spend $5000 on a vacation (hotel and air) and I can’t fly there, I’m out $5000 for no fault of my own.
- pedrorijo91 6y ago
  not fair. it's not a normal service. it's a transportation service. If I can't travel on date X, traveling on date Y may be useless. One could argue it would be useful for another trip to a different location. Sure. But because airflights prices are so shady (prices changing every day, prices that are different if you have a VPN connected, etc etc), the voucher could make you choose for the worst price. That doesn't seem fair to me tbh
- mrep 6y ago
  The travel vouchers are essentially 0% interest loans that expire worthless if not used in 9 months. That is by far worse than cash. I don't even know why this is controversial. I paid for a service, they cancelled it and now I should get my money back and if they want that money, than they can get it in the future when the offer some other flight I want. I didn't pay them for a gift card that expires worthless in 9 months. Even gifts cards cannot pull that expiring shit anymore because it is so anti-consumer.
chrisseaton 6y ago
> This would be fraud. I think 'fraud' has a specific technical definition - it requires 'intentional deception' or 'misrepresentation' or something similar depending where in the world you are. If they decide to cancel your flight for business reasons and genuinely weren't planning to when they sold you your ticket you can argue that you should get your money back under consumer rights about paying for services provided and maybe contracts I don't know, but it doesn't really make any sense to claim it's 'fraud' - there isn't the deception or misrepresentation required.
- lagadu 6y ago
  Yep, this isn't fraud; it's just breach of contract.
- HashThis 6y ago
  The fraud is at a far deeper level. The founding father's social contract is based on laws-apply-equally-to-all-people (citizens vs BigCo). On a fundamental level, congress protects corporations financially in situations between BigCo-vs-citizen. Congress betrays people financially in cases of BigCo-vs-citizens. Congress sells out repeatedly to money interests. Congress on a fundamental violates laws-apply-equally-to-all-people. The fraud is at a deep level is when citizens loose hard cash by congress selling them out. I have plane tickets of flights that were cancelled. I'm going to lose $4,000 in real cash based on the flights my family ordered. $4,000 in real cash, because congress sells out citizens. When I lose $4k, that is fraud when the airline cancelled the flight.
  - chrisseaton 6y ago
    But none of that is 'fraud' - they're being quite straightforward in telling you that they're cancelling and not refunding because they can't afford to refund. It'd only be 'fraud' if they were deceptive. 'Fraud' doesn't just mean 'something against my interests.'

a3n 6y ago

No, if revolution happens in the USA it will be because politicians went too far in dividing us.

jacquesm 6y ago
Not as long as there is sports on tv and McDonalds is open. Oh, wait.
- a3n 6y ago
  Bread and circus.
- nostromo 6y ago
  Pot, liquor stores, and vape shops were all deemed essential businesses in Washington State. Turns out the true opiate of the people are... well, opiates and other drugs.
  - Analemma_ 6y ago
    This is an ignorant comment; there are entirely legitimate reasons why those stores are still open. Alcohol withdrawal can actually kill you, or at least put you in the hospital, and having to hospitalize a bunch of alcoholics is the last thing the system needs right now. People also use cannabis as a safer alternative to pain relief than actual opiates.
    - reaperducer 6y ago
      You missed one. What is the entirely legitimate reason why vape stores should be open?
      - p1necone 6y ago
        Nicotine withdrawal won't kill you like alcohol can, but it sure fucking sucks. Taking away every source of joy from the populace during this could cause more harm than good. Also if you could buy cigarettes, but not vape supplies then a bunch of people would hop back on those.
      - smabie 6y ago
        For the same reason that Chik-Fil-a is open: because people like it.
ta999999171 6y ago
Why wouldn't it be both?

usaar333 6y ago

There's all sorts of Force Majeure rules in life and contracts. e.g. I still have to pay for my kid's preschool she can't use. (Edit: Prepaid, not getting a refund) I'm not sympathetic to the airlines at all and think they should refund, but I don't think it is universally true that "can't deliver service = owed money back" in this pandemic.

tantalor 6y ago
Well, no, Force Majeure would give you an option to back out of your agreement with the preschool, including tuition. My understanding is Force Majeure rescinds the contract for Act of God (natural disaster) or Government (human-caused disaster). No contract means deposits and pre-payments would also revert. /ianal
- eloff 6y ago
  Unless you prepaid. I got forced into taking an apartment rental I wanted to back out of when I got laid off because I made the mistake of paying promptly. I might have had a chance to fight it otherwise.
  - tantalor 6y ago
    Not necessarily... the common law concept of restitution requires that the parties be returned to their original, pre-contracting positions. In reality, this means that the parties must return any prepaid monies or deposits https://www.agg.com/news-insights/publications/your-event-is-cancelled-because-of-covid-19-breach-of-contract-or-excused-performance/ https://www.agg.com/news-insights/publications/your-event-is...
    - usaar333 6y ago
      I think you are copying the section of when there is no force majeur section. See this legal article covering schools "https://www.fisherphillips.com/resources-alerts-comprehensive-covid-19-strategy-plan-for-independent" https://www.fisherphillips.com/resources-alerts-comprehensiv... -- they aren't legally obligated to refund if they have a force majeur provision in their contract.

tomp 6y ago

It's a painful situation. There will be pain, suffering and A LOT OF economic loss. Somebody will have to pay for that loss. Guess who? The people! There's literally noone else to do it... how to distribute the burden? "fairly" (each person has a different idea what that means) ... at least people who afford air travel probably have a bit of money they can lose without suffering too much.

whelming_wave 6y ago
I’m sure the company will be able to suffer through the losses - and if it can’t, was it a viable business in the first place?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- ksk 6y ago
  I don't think any business plan accounts for half of the worlds population suddenly not participating in the world economy.
  - jessaustin 6y ago
    Businesses with bad plans fail every day.
    - EpicEng 6y ago
      Any business plan that included "preparations for never before seen economic disruption due to global pandemic" would be hilariously bad.
      - jessaustin 6y ago
        A plan that included saving rather than leverage would be well suited to many sorts of disruptions. You couldn't hire McKinsey to write it for you, however. Underlying all this whinging there seems to be a remarkable expectation that the world is supposed to be fair, and when it's not the taxpayer and the Fed should make it so. If the objects of all this fairness were human, I could see the point. However, you're talking about corporations, so there is no point.

nostromo 6y ago

They can and will deliver the service, on another flight, which is why they're giving you a flight voucher. Why is this controversial? Seems fair enough to me. I get the feeling people enjoy beating up on airlines because so many people pay the smallest amount possible, and then are shocked when they're not treated like first class passengers. People pay for McDonalds but expect fine dining.

colejohnson66 6y ago
Because even though I probably agreed to a trade in the terms of purchase, a rescheduled flight isn’t a great solution; sometimes a rescheduled flight can mean the difference between a vacation and nothing. If I spend $5000 on a vacation (hotel and air) and I can’t fly there, I’m out $5000 for no fault of my own.
pedrorijo91 6y ago
not fair. it's not a normal service. it's a transportation service. If I can't travel on date X, traveling on date Y may be useless. One could argue it would be useful for another trip to a different location. Sure. But because airflights prices are so shady (prices changing every day, prices that are different if you have a VPN connected, etc etc), the voucher could make you choose for the worst price. That doesn't seem fair to me tbh
mrep 6y ago
The travel vouchers are essentially 0% interest loans that expire worthless if not used in 9 months. That is by far worse than cash. I don't even know why this is controversial. I paid for a service, they cancelled it and now I should get my money back and if they want that money, than they can get it in the future when the offer some other flight I want. I didn't pay them for a gift card that expires worthless in 9 months. Even gifts cards cannot pull that expiring shit anymore because it is so anti-consumer.

chrisseaton 6y ago

> This would be fraud. I think 'fraud' has a specific technical definition - it requires 'intentional deception' or 'misrepresentation' or something similar depending where in the world you are. If they decide to cancel your flight for business reasons and genuinely weren't planning to when they sold you your ticket you can argue that you should get your money back under consumer rights about paying for services provided and maybe contracts I don't know, but it doesn't really make any sense to claim it's 'fraud' - there isn't the deception or misrepresentation required.

lagadu 6y ago
Yep, this isn't fraud; it's just breach of contract.
HashThis 6y ago
The fraud is at a far deeper level. The founding father's social contract is based on laws-apply-equally-to-all-people (citizens vs BigCo). On a fundamental level, congress protects corporations financially in situations between BigCo-vs-citizen. Congress betrays people financially in cases of BigCo-vs-citizens. Congress sells out repeatedly to money interests. Congress on a fundamental violates laws-apply-equally-to-all-people. The fraud is at a deep level is when citizens loose hard cash by congress selling them out. I have plane tickets of flights that were cancelled. I'm going to lose $4,000 in real cash based on the flights my family ordered. $4,000 in real cash, because congress sells out citizens. When I lose $4k, that is fraud when the airline cancelled the flight.
- chrisseaton 6y ago
  But none of that is 'fraud' - they're being quite straightforward in telling you that they're cancelling and not refunding because they can't afford to refund. It'd only be 'fraud' if they were deceptive. 'Fraud' doesn't just mean 'something against my interests.'