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They were basically insolvent when the extra Softbank cash failed and the IPO failed. And that was before COVID-19. But you make a good point: They owe so much

They were basically insolvent when the extra Softbank cash failed and the IPO failed. And that was before COVID-19. But you make a good point: They owe so much in leases they have huge negotiating power, and with COVID-19 they probably have even more since nobody's renting space right now.

code4tee 7y ago
Having a lease is not the same as “owing the bank money” to go with the loan analogy. Yes it’s painful for landlords but the landlords have options. If they kicked WeWork out they’re not just out the money in the way a bank is if a borrower defaults. There’s some short term pain but if WeWork has long leases at some point it benefits the landlords to just kick them out and move on.
- toomuchtodo 7y ago
  Landlords have mortgages to pay. Bondholders hold those notes. There is very little slack in the system for this scale of default.
  - TheOtherHobbes 7y ago
    Some landlords have mortgages to pay. How many WW properties are still owned by Adam Neumann?
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - eldavido 7y ago
      This whole thing frustrates me so much. It's like people are just spouting off random opinions not substantiated by any data or real-world experience...at all. I just looked it up. WeWork has 848 locations globally. These locations aren't in houses...they're in gargantuan, tall office buildings, worth tens/hundreds of millions of dollars each. If Adam Neumann is a billionaire, AND if he has most of his wealth in commercial real estate (I'm sure he doesn't), he might own...5-10 of these. The rest are owned by REITs like Simon Property Group, Thor Equities, CB Richard Ellis (CBRE), Jones Lang LaSalle (JLL), and others.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
      - smcl 7y ago
        I think you’re missing the point. There was a huge controversy a while back where it appeared as though Adam Neumann was fleecing the company - personally trademarking the “We” brand and selling it back to the company, buying up certain office space and leasing it back to WeWork.
- eldavido 7y ago
  Yes it is. It is exactly the same thing. A landlord is an unsecured creditor just like a lender with a loan that isn't backed by pledged collateral. In general, any unsecured creditor, whether bank, landlord, etc can sue or take other legal action to recover what they're owed. Though they might not win. What the common discourse around this situation misses is how the landlords are very much on the hook if WeWork blows up. Especially given the broader economic contraction, there is no scenario where the landlords will force WeWork into destruction/non-operation. WeWork might file for chapter 11 bankruptcy and there's going to be some losses, but the odds of this business simply saying, sorry guys, we're closed, pack up your shit and go home, are effectively zero.
eldavido 7y ago
If you have some time, read a few books about how huge debt crises get resolved. It's fascinating. My friend Drew is a huge "bankruptcy geek" and eats this shit up. A good starter book: "This Time It's Different", often referred to as "Rheinhart and Rogoff" by the authors names. https://www.amazon.com/This-Time-Different-Centuries-Financial/dp/0691152640 https://www.amazon.com/This-Time-Different-Centuries-Financi... - great overview of how many nation-state debt crises got resolved. In general, most parties end up taking a haircut (not a total loss) and everyone gets on with their life. Sears and Radio Shack are interesting cases from the corporate (not government) world. There are entire specialist law firms and financing companies that deal just with distressed debt. What's crazy to me is how much this stuff repeats. Argentina has been a basket case almost nonstop for the last 20 years and yet, people still lend to them. Why anyone would continue to do this over and over befuddles, but just goes to show how crazy things can be.
- toomuchtodo 7y ago
  Debt: The First 5000 years is also a great read on the topic. https://www.amazon.com/Debt-Updated-Expanded-First-Years/dp/1612194192 https://www.amazon.com/Debt-Updated-Expanded-First-Years/dp/...

code4tee 7y ago

Having a lease is not the same as “owing the bank money” to go with the loan analogy. Yes it’s painful for landlords but the landlords have options. If they kicked WeWork out they’re not just out the money in the way a bank is if a borrower defaults. There’s some short term pain but if WeWork has long leases at some point it benefits the landlords to just kick them out and move on.

toomuchtodo 7y ago
Landlords have mortgages to pay. Bondholders hold those notes. There is very little slack in the system for this scale of default.
- TheOtherHobbes 7y ago
  Some landlords have mortgages to pay. How many WW properties are still owned by Adam Neumann?
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - eldavido 7y ago
    This whole thing frustrates me so much. It's like people are just spouting off random opinions not substantiated by any data or real-world experience...at all. I just looked it up. WeWork has 848 locations globally. These locations aren't in houses...they're in gargantuan, tall office buildings, worth tens/hundreds of millions of dollars each. If Adam Neumann is a billionaire, AND if he has most of his wealth in commercial real estate (I'm sure he doesn't), he might own...5-10 of these. The rest are owned by REITs like Simon Property Group, Thor Equities, CB Richard Ellis (CBRE), Jones Lang LaSalle (JLL), and others.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - smcl 7y ago
      I think you’re missing the point. There was a huge controversy a while back where it appeared as though Adam Neumann was fleecing the company - personally trademarking the “We” brand and selling it back to the company, buying up certain office space and leasing it back to WeWork.
eldavido 7y ago
Yes it is. It is exactly the same thing. A landlord is an unsecured creditor just like a lender with a loan that isn't backed by pledged collateral. In general, any unsecured creditor, whether bank, landlord, etc can sue or take other legal action to recover what they're owed. Though they might not win. What the common discourse around this situation misses is how the landlords are very much on the hook if WeWork blows up. Especially given the broader economic contraction, there is no scenario where the landlords will force WeWork into destruction/non-operation. WeWork might file for chapter 11 bankruptcy and there's going to be some losses, but the odds of this business simply saying, sorry guys, we're closed, pack up your shit and go home, are effectively zero.

eldavido 7y ago

If you have some time, read a few books about how huge debt crises get resolved. It's fascinating. My friend Drew is a huge "bankruptcy geek" and eats this shit up. A good starter book: "This Time It's Different", often referred to as "Rheinhart and Rogoff" by the authors names. https://www.amazon.com/This-Time-Different-Centuries-Financial/dp/0691152640 https://www.amazon.com/This-Time-Different-Centuries-Financi... - great overview of how many nation-state debt crises got resolved. In general, most parties end up taking a haircut (not a total loss) and everyone gets on with their life. Sears and Radio Shack are interesting cases from the corporate (not government) world. There are entire specialist law firms and financing companies that deal just with distressed debt. What's crazy to me is how much this stuff repeats. Argentina has been a basket case almost nonstop for the last 20 years and yet, people still lend to them. Why anyone would continue to do this over and over befuddles, but just goes to show how crazy things can be.

toomuchtodo 7y ago
Debt: The First 5000 years is also a great read on the topic. https://www.amazon.com/Debt-Updated-Expanded-First-Years/dp/1612194192 https://www.amazon.com/Debt-Updated-Expanded-First-Years/dp/...