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4. Increase pay/benefits to your rank and file employees for helping you get so much cash 5. Invest back in the business at reasonable levels so as to keep eno

4. Increase pay/benefits to your rank and file employees for helping you get so much cash 5. Invest back in the business at reasonable levels so as to keep enough cash for an emergency fund 6. Focus on improving world impact through starting philanthropic activities

brockwhittaker 7y ago
> Increase pay/benefits to your rank and file employees for helping you get so much cash The auto industry did this through high wages and very large pension plans, and got absolutely destroyed in '08 and also demonized by taxpayers for creating an undeserving "welfare class" of autoworkers that was too expensive to maintain. > Invest back in the business at reasonable levels so as to keep enough cash for an emergency fund What if you feel like any further investment yields negative return? Berkshire Hathaway has been sitting on cash for years because they felt that they couldn't put their money into any constituent businesses and generate the right return. Why purposefully throw money into a black hole?
- adjkant 7y ago
  > The auto industry did this through high wages and very large pension plans, and got absolutely destroyed in '08 and also demonized by taxpayers for creating an undeserving "welfare class" of autoworkers that was too expensive to maintain. I'm not sure I'd be making long term business decisions based on how reactionary people are to things after a crisis. I also don't think you're going to hear the argument that the reason the auto industry failed was because they were paying their rank and file workers too much... No one said use it all either, this is a balancing act, just as using up most of your free cash to buy stock back probably isn't a good long term idea either. > What if you feel like any further investment yields negative return? Why purposefully throw money into a black hole? First, yielding negative return and throwing into a black hole are two very different things. A negative return can either create more jobs for people, perform a social good, or help in some other way beyond raw return. Businesses of the scale of having billions in cash siting around are not going to run out of ways to improve their business efficiency.
sanderjd 7y ago
Option 4 is clearly a good one, more companies should pay dividends to employees in addition to (or instead of) shareholders. Employees have a stake in the company and the usual way of doing this (by giving employees stock so that they get the same benefits as shareholders do) doesn't align risks well. These are called bonuses, and yeah, big companies should pay more bonuses when they are performing well. I'm all for any company that does that and any policy that incentivizes it. But I'm a lot less convinced by your other two points. I'm sure the airlines did keep enough cash for an emergency fund, but every emergency fund comes with a model of what an emergency looks like, and for airlines what makes sense to cover is things like oil price increases or a recession that impacts demand for travel by a few percent, not an event like this that results in a 95% decline in demand due to government mandates; we don't want every large corporation hoarding a hundred billion dollars in cash, we want that cash available to invest elsewhere. And I don't really want corporations to be major leaders of philanthropic activities. Why them? Who are they accountable to? Why should I expect them to support good causes? I would rather see that money in the pockets of individuals who can decide what philanthropy to support, or in the pockets of a government whose philanthropy is accountable to voters. The (flawed, but not entirely) idea of buybacks and dividends is that they also achieve the function of getting cash out of the hands of big corporation managers. When that cash ends up just sitting in another bank account of a rich person (or in a yacht) that is a shame, but it is its own problem for which there should be different solutions, but when that cash ends up flowing into other investments, that is much better than it sitting in the bank account of an already-huge corporation or being funneled into doomed business lines outside that company's area of expertise.
- adjkant 7y ago
  > I'm sure the airlines did keep enough cash for an emergency fund, but every emergency fund comes with a model of what an emergency looks like, and for airlines what makes sense to cover is things like oil price increases or a recession that impacts demand for travel by a few percent, not an event like this that results in a 95% decline in demand due to government mandates; we don't want every large corporation hoarding a hundred billion dollars in cash, we want that cash available to invest elsewhere. I would agree that an emergency fund likely would have still run out in this scenario, but I don't think that invalidates the idea of investing back in the business does it? It's just more that the caveat is debatable / easier said than done. > And I don't really want corporations to be major leaders of philanthropic activities. Why them? Who are they accountable to? Why should I expect them to support good causes? I would rather see that money in the pockets of individuals who can decide what philanthropy to support, or in the pockets of a government whose philanthropy is accountable to voters. Honestly fair point, I agree generally with who is allocating. I guess the question is how do you execute getting it in the hands of individuals or government for philanthropic purposes though? I wouldn't actually mind seeing a system for that where you can pay into a government controlled philanthropy fund that voters help allocate on ballots during voting but that type of system doesn't exist now, and getting it to individuals is typically limited to your employees which then just turns this into option 4 but with the likelihood that they money goes into other businesses instead of the original intended purpose. This whole thing could just be a poll on the website or a matching campaign that customers engage with where they choose from a wide variety of sources. That's a major philanthropic activity by the business but then not allocated by the business itself, assuming the options are sufficiently ranging.

brockwhittaker 7y ago

> Increase pay/benefits to your rank and file employees for helping you get so much cash The auto industry did this through high wages and very large pension plans, and got absolutely destroyed in '08 and also demonized by taxpayers for creating an undeserving "welfare class" of autoworkers that was too expensive to maintain. > Invest back in the business at reasonable levels so as to keep enough cash for an emergency fund What if you feel like any further investment yields negative return? Berkshire Hathaway has been sitting on cash for years because they felt that they couldn't put their money into any constituent businesses and generate the right return. Why purposefully throw money into a black hole?

adjkant 7y ago
> The auto industry did this through high wages and very large pension plans, and got absolutely destroyed in '08 and also demonized by taxpayers for creating an undeserving "welfare class" of autoworkers that was too expensive to maintain. I'm not sure I'd be making long term business decisions based on how reactionary people are to things after a crisis. I also don't think you're going to hear the argument that the reason the auto industry failed was because they were paying their rank and file workers too much... No one said use it all either, this is a balancing act, just as using up most of your free cash to buy stock back probably isn't a good long term idea either. > What if you feel like any further investment yields negative return? Why purposefully throw money into a black hole? First, yielding negative return and throwing into a black hole are two very different things. A negative return can either create more jobs for people, perform a social good, or help in some other way beyond raw return. Businesses of the scale of having billions in cash siting around are not going to run out of ways to improve their business efficiency.

sanderjd 7y ago

Option 4 is clearly a good one, more companies should pay dividends to employees in addition to (or instead of) shareholders. Employees have a stake in the company and the usual way of doing this (by giving employees stock so that they get the same benefits as shareholders do) doesn't align risks well. These are called bonuses, and yeah, big companies should pay more bonuses when they are performing well. I'm all for any company that does that and any policy that incentivizes it. But I'm a lot less convinced by your other two points. I'm sure the airlines did keep enough cash for an emergency fund, but every emergency fund comes with a model of what an emergency looks like, and for airlines what makes sense to cover is things like oil price increases or a recession that impacts demand for travel by a few percent, not an event like this that results in a 95% decline in demand due to government mandates; we don't want every large corporation hoarding a hundred billion dollars in cash, we want that cash available to invest elsewhere. And I don't really want corporations to be major leaders of philanthropic activities. Why them? Who are they accountable to? Why should I expect them to support good causes? I would rather see that money in the pockets of individuals who can decide what philanthropy to support, or in the pockets of a government whose philanthropy is accountable to voters. The (flawed, but not entirely) idea of buybacks and dividends is that they also achieve the function of getting cash out of the hands of big corporation managers. When that cash ends up just sitting in another bank account of a rich person (or in a yacht) that is a shame, but it is its own problem for which there should be different solutions, but when that cash ends up flowing into other investments, that is much better than it sitting in the bank account of an already-huge corporation or being funneled into doomed business lines outside that company's area of expertise.

adjkant 7y ago
> I'm sure the airlines did keep enough cash for an emergency fund, but every emergency fund comes with a model of what an emergency looks like, and for airlines what makes sense to cover is things like oil price increases or a recession that impacts demand for travel by a few percent, not an event like this that results in a 95% decline in demand due to government mandates; we don't want every large corporation hoarding a hundred billion dollars in cash, we want that cash available to invest elsewhere. I would agree that an emergency fund likely would have still run out in this scenario, but I don't think that invalidates the idea of investing back in the business does it? It's just more that the caveat is debatable / easier said than done. > And I don't really want corporations to be major leaders of philanthropic activities. Why them? Who are they accountable to? Why should I expect them to support good causes? I would rather see that money in the pockets of individuals who can decide what philanthropy to support, or in the pockets of a government whose philanthropy is accountable to voters. Honestly fair point, I agree generally with who is allocating. I guess the question is how do you execute getting it in the hands of individuals or government for philanthropic purposes though? I wouldn't actually mind seeing a system for that where you can pay into a government controlled philanthropy fund that voters help allocate on ballots during voting but that type of system doesn't exist now, and getting it to individuals is typically limited to your employees which then just turns this into option 4 but with the likelihood that they money goes into other businesses instead of the original intended purpose. This whole thing could just be a poll on the website or a matching campaign that customers engage with where they choose from a wide variety of sources. That's a major philanthropic activity by the business but then not allocated by the business itself, assuming the options are sufficiently ranging.